Winter Hive Set Up

[Blaz]

Hello - first time bee keeper here.
I have a National hive with OMF. I've set up the hive as follows and would appreciate advice on whether this is the correct way to have my hive as we go into winter.
I have a section with honey stores just above the entrance block. Above this is the brood body. Then a crown board and above this a half size super which is now carrying insulation, finally the roof.
My last inspection - 3 weeks ago showed the brood to be in good shape following treatment with Maq's. Brood in all stages including capped. The frames were absolutely covered in bees and there was a lot of uncapped honey in the frames. It seems that every available cell is being used for something! The bees are still active, loads of pollen going in the hive.
But I digress - is my set up OK i.e. with the brood above the stores? Also, is the OMF left open all winter?
Thanks guys...

 

[Finman]

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You must move honey store above the brood box that is natural order in beehives. Cluster wil move up during winter.

 

[B+.]

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You must move honey store above the brood box that is natural order in beehives. Cluster wil move up during winter.

Finman is correct but you should understand why.
The queen will reduce/stop egg laying as we move into winter and any sealed brood they have will eventually emerge and be an empty space. The adult bees will then move up to the warmest part of the hive and consume the stores over winter (if the honey is placed above the brood). If you leave it with the honey below the brood, the warmest part of the hive will be where they are now and they will be reluctant to move out of it and may starve.
Your insulated super above the crownboard is a good idea and will stop them from losing so much heat as it rises.
The only thing I might add is to ask if you have a mouseguard in place already? If not, check that a mouse hasn't already entered before you put one on. If you have problems with woodpeckers in your area, you should wrap the hive in 1/2" chicken wire leaving about 2" gap (for safety) around the hive so woodpeckers can't reach it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have a section with honey stores just above the entrance block

When was this put in place?

 

[Blaz]

I put the stores under the brood beginning of September. At that time there were 3 full frames of honey. My observation 3 weeks ago indicated that the empty cells in the brood chamber above were being used as honey storage so maybe I should simply lift the brood off to check the stores in the bottom box - disturbing the bees as little as possible?[

 

[Erichalfbee]

I put the stores under the brood beginning of September. At that time there were 3 full frames of honey. My observation 3 weeks ago indicated that the empty cells in the brood chamber above were being used as honey storage so maybe I should simply lift the brood off to check the stores in the bottom box - disturbing the bees as little as possible?[

In which case by now I would expect the bees to have moved this honey into the brood box. Lots of beekeepers nadir unextractable frames with just this in mind.
So....It will likely be empty and you can leave it there till spring......save you disturbing them at this time of year. It will also help by raising the brood nest/cluster off the floor.

 

[Finman]

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There is difference with honey stores and empty combs

It is now better to open brood box and look how much it has honey in each combs.

You do not learn beekeeping if you are afraid of open the hive.

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[Blaz]

Thanks Eric - that would certainly explain the full combs in the brood box.

 

[Blaz]

Hey Finman - I not at all afraid to open the hive - quite the opposite. I need to stop myself opening just because I love looking at the bees and gaining an understanding of what they are doing. But I also understand that at this time of the year it's best to leave them unless necessary. Which is why I may lift off the brood box and simply check the stores - maybe as Eric has said, the honey has all been transferred. That would also explain why the frames in the brood box were so full of bees on the comb - they were transferring the honey to the comb in the brood box.

 

[Finman]

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If I were you, I woud take the empty box off.
I do not keep extra space in wintering hives.

That is good that brood frames are full.

Combs will be easily ruined if they are over winter in the hive for nothing.

 

[retired bill]

I am in a similar position I have carried out the Apigard treatment and stopped feeding I put the super under the brood the OMF is open there is 50mm of insulation under the roof.
As Blaz said I would love to go and have a look but I think I should leave well alone.

 

[Amari]

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You must move honey store above the brood box that is natural order in beehives. Cluster wil move up during winter.

Finman, have you ever experimented with placing the shallow box full of stores under the brood box as a winter practice? If not how do you know which method is best?
For my first 25 years of beekeeping I fed syrup into a super (=shallow) above the bb and left it there over winter (after removing the queen excluder of course). The problem in the spring was that the super still had some syrup stores which precluded using that super for the spring honey flow.
About 15 years ago I changed from solid to OM floors and when I finish feeding syrup in the autumn I transfer the super (shallow)from above to below the bb. In the spring I always find the shallow completely empty because the bees have moved all the stores up into the bb.
Advantages: 1. empty shallow can be used for honey collection. 2.Over winter the shallow is below the bb thus acting as insulation and reducing draughts coming thro' the OMF.

 

[B+.]

About 15 years ago I changed from solid to OM floors and when I finish feeding syrup in the autumn I transfer the super (shallow)from above to below the bb. In the spring I always find the shallow completely empty because the bees have moved all the stores up into the bb.
Advantages: 1. empty shallow can be used for honey collection. 2.Over winter the shallow is below the bb thus acting as insulation and reducing draughts coming thro' the OMF.

So long as you have plenty of stores in the brood box, you'll probably be ok, but, if you have a hard winter and they run out of stores, they'll probably starve. Its also a large area for them to keep warm.
Its not a big deal to remove surplus stores in the spring if you have to but this is precisely the time when they are expanding and need all that extra food.

 

[bjosephd]

I am yet to put my mouse guards on... I have them ready, but thought best to keep them off while wasps are still loitering so hives don't have to defend multiple mini entrances. Also they still seem busy on these nice sunny days gathering pollen.

However, having read earlier in the is thread, should I lift the brood boxes before putting the mouse guards on to ensure no mouse has moved in already?

I was really hoping not to open the boxes now until spring...

Am I really asking for trouble if I leave them locked up and just pin on the mouse guards tomorrow? I really don't want to open them up.

I guess mouse guards should go on tomorrow then.

 

[Matt77]

I'm in the same position bjosephd, I'm using Paynes polys. Decided to nip up & spin the entrance blocks to the mouse guard side but they were so busy, it was like a summers day in terms of traffic. So decided not to bother, hopefully not a mistake. Can't see how a mouse could get past that amount of bees though to be honest.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can't see how a mouse could get past that amount of bees though to be honest.

when it cools down and they begin to cluster they'll just walk on in

 

[Matt77]

I was concerned the mouse guard block(4 holes) would cause a problem with congestion bearing in mind they were queuing up already with the standard entrance block, there was also bucket loads of pollen coming in. More than likely I'm overthinking it though!

 

[Finman]

Finman, have you ever experimented with placing the shallow box full of stores under the brood box as a winter practice? If not how do you know which method is best?
For my first 25 years of beekeeping I fed syrup into a super (=shallow) above the bb and left it there over winter (after removing the queen excluder of course). The problem in the spring was that the super still had some syrup stores which precluded using that super for the spring honey flow.
About 15 years ago I changed from solid to OM floors and when I finish feeding syrup in the autumn I transfer the super (shallow)from above to below the bb. In the spring I always find the shallow completely empty because the bees have moved all the stores up into the bb.
Advantages: 1. empty shallow can be used for honey collection. 2.yOver winter the shallow is below the bb thus acting as insulation and reducing draughts coming thro' the OMF.

What you describe, is contoversy how I over winter hives.
I know what is best, because quite often hives go by itself to the situation what you describe.

Those advantages: I mix my medium and langtroth boxes. I use broodboxes as supers and supers as brood boxes.

To hinder draft? That is why I do not use mesh floor. My cottage yard is quite windy place and even hedge do not stop wind.

Hives must have allways winter sugar when next yield starts. If they do not have, they would starve dead. I even sugar stores durig spring between hives when I see when each hive has. When willow starts blooming, and bees start brooding, even big sugar stires will be vanished when brood rearing consumes food a huge amount.

I know that extra space under brood box slows spring build up. I see it every spring. After long winter colonies are quite much reduced from that what they were 8 months ago at start.

I have heated hives with terrarium electrict heaters 15 years and J have seen the influence on build up.

I have seen before that, what influence wind had in different parts of home yard. Ekectrict heating sweeped away those differencies.
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[Finman]

Finman, have you ever experimented with placing the shallow box full of stores under the brood box as a winter practice? If not how do you know which method is best?
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I do not know, what is best. And it is impossibke to know, are all 750 different opearations best.

At least when I read this forum, peopke here recommend 10 times more operations what beehive actually needs to set up to wintering.
I gove a link to Ohio State wintering book. Good in it was that it had main thing what you should to do.

Lets look again, what I do when I have 6 langstroth hive in outer pastures.

What I need with me is empty combs when I open each hive.
- I take all boxes away.
- I open the brood nest and I evaluate how big the cluster will be. Does it need one ir two boxes.
- I put all brood frames into liwest box.
- then place of pollen frames.
- clean combs against the walls. Pollen frames and dark frames take mold.
- to upper box qood quality combs and enougb pollen. But nit dituated in the centre and not along side walls.
- all honey off which are not in brood frames and in pollen frames..

REDUGING

when wintering boxes are ready, I put trasnport mesh on the hive.
I shake all bees in front oc the hive and bees walk into the hive.

Hive is ready to move my cottage yard and ready to start feeding with 8 litre feeder.

Summary

Winter set up is simple when I have a normal big hive.
More difficult is to think, what to do with 4 and 6 frame nucs. Joinjng us often the solution.

Brood frames into lower box and into centre of box.

How do I know!
The system is good when colony build up is good .
The goal is, that I get the colony ready to forage early surplus as early as possible.

To get the colony alive over winter is mere routine. When colony is alive after cleansing flight, it takes 3 months that colony starts to get new surplus. That period needs set up too.

 

[Finman]

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There are some basic facts in beekeeping.
And this is one for wintering: Brood down, stores up.

Second: Reduce wintering room, that heat do not spead to empty spaces. Do not add space in autumn.