Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

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This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[madasafish]

I can only disagree. We've had some very wet weather and a cold snap recently. I've lost several colonies to dampness. I'm not so precious about my bees that I think that's indefensible. If it were not for me none of those colonies would have existed at all. Its the practical outcome of trying to bootstrap a livelihood. There are too many balls in the air: some get dropped. That's not to say its not regrettable.

I have lost no colonies to "dampness".
I have never lost colonies to "dampness"
None of my acquaintances lose colonies to "dampness".
I don't know what the symptoms of the disease "dampness" are.

I have seen people who don't treat lose colonies to varroa .. and deny it.

 

[user 20297]

I can only disagree. We've had some very wet weather and a cold snap recently. I've lost several colonies to dampness. I'm not so precious about my bees that I think that's indefensible. If it were not for me none of those colonies would have existed at all. Its the practical outcome of trying to bootstrap a livelihood. There are too many balls in the air: some get dropped. That's not to say its not regrettable.

Whilst I agree with your insistence that we beekeepers have a duty to consider the impact that our beekeeping has on the population of wild honeybees, I don't think that (in respect of the boxes we provide them with) that should that be to the detriment of those bees that we choose to "accommodate".

 

[Beesnaturally]

I have lost no colonies to "dampness".
I have never lost colonies to "dampness"
None of my acquaintances lose colonies to "dampness".
I don't know what the symptoms of the disease "dampness" are.

I have seen people who don't treat lose colonies to varroa .. and deny it.

Yes, you may be right. I don't know why they are no more. I'm just guessing they'd have had a better chance in a nice dry home.
I've never denied losing colonies to varroa. What I have spoken of is not losing colonies to anything.

 

[fian]

Yes, you may be right. I don't know why they are no more. I'm just guessing they'd have had a better chance in a nice dry home.
I've never denied losing colonies to varroa. What I have spoken of is not losing colonies to anything.

There are external agents such as humidity, cold that report the state of a colony, that is, in the absence of other indicators in the honeycomb, we must assume that the population with which you entered in autumn was insufficient and while the queen is alive, the bees will not abandon the hive.

Again, it makes me somewhat perplexed that someone who maintains a "Life or death" procedure and who does not treat varroa is reluctant to accept a death from varroa and attributes it to "dampness", revealing his manifest inability to be a beekeeper (because the following year I would divide the apiary with some criteria of varroa infestation and I would treat the most infested in order to improve their survival criteria). You are not a better ecologist for proposing an optimal life for wild colonies while leaving beekeeping and bees as the lesser evil. Begin to understand that your action causes the decrease in the diversity of the bee population, on the way to their extinction and the loss of the work / hobby of others. You have 2 options

1. Keep releasing beliefs of a theoretical scientist and a bad beekeeper.

2. Be more empathetic and try to improve as a beekeeper.

 

[rolande]

Not for the first time in recent years I'm going to stand back and just watch. In the old days I'd have got myself embroiled in an ongoing back and forth, not now, not when I can see its going to be pointless.

I've had to use old tired boxes many times but am on a constant improvement plan. I can't see any justification for choosing to use ropey boxes.

The one thing I know for certain is that no matter how good the season is I only ever get a crop from the colonies that are alive to do the work.

 

[user 20297]

In order to be as rigorously scientific as possible in your claims for your bees, don't you have to make the effort to keep those stress factors other than Varroa to a level at which they are mitigated as far as possible? Don't the bees deserve that in any case since, as you say, they exist because of your actions in the first place?
In your situation, if it is so easy to ascribe the loss of a colony to causes other than Varroa, as @fian seems to be implying, it undermines confidence for a beekeeper who wishes to follow your path.
Undoubtedly you are breeding tough bees and this aligns with your general principles, but it is another factor that may alienate you from other beekeepers and make your message even more difficult to receive.

 

[Beesnaturally]

There are external agents such as humidity, cold that report the state of a colony, that is, in the absence of other indicators in the honeycomb, we must assume that the population with which you entered in autumn was insufficient and while the queen is alive, the bees will not abandon the hive.

The queens may have died in autumn. One of the reasons for a leave-alone strategy is to try to locate strains that are good at superceding. With just a few hives you could monitor and take action of some sort, but with 60 or 70 and a bunch of other stuff to get down, live and let die sees, on average, the best come flying through.

You can't breed without a selection process. My process aims to locate the most self-sufficient.

If you are not breeding then you are a beekeeper in a fairly limited way.

Again, it makes me somewhat perplexed that someone who maintains a "Life or death" procedure and who does not treat varroa is reluctant to accept a death from varroa and attributes it to "dampness", revealing his manifest inability to be a beekeeper ...

You have just QUOTED my admission that they may well have died from varroa. So I don't know what this is about.

(because the following year I would divide the apiary with some criteria of varroa infestation and I would treat the most infested in order to improve their survival criteria).

Eh? I'm not sure if you still haven't got the general idea, or if your English/translator is letting you down here.

You are not a better ecologist for proposing an optimal life for wild colonies while leaving beekeeping and bees as the lesser evil. Begin to understand that your action causes the decrease in the diversity of the bee population, on the way to their extinction and the loss of the work / hobby of others.

That's nonsense. There is zero lack of diversity in the UK - in fact many would say there far too much diversity. Helping local populations to thrve not only massively increases diversity, it restores the right kinds of diversity.

You have 2 options

1. Keep releasing beliefs of a theoretical scientist and a bad beekeeper.

2. Be more empathetic and try to improve as a beekeeper.

I make no claim to being a scientist. I do have a claim to understanding the science of evolution and natural selection, the way it corresponds with selective breeding and organic husbandry. I can recognise full-on agreement with my understanding when I see it in peer-reviewed papers. I have corresponded on a number of occasions on this topic with esteemed bee scientists, and found full and complete agreement.

A bad beekeeper, by your lights.
There are some who make a distinction between beekeepers and bee-users. Those primarily concerned for the health their local free-living population I would say are the only ones who belong in the first category. To husband local genetics in order to keep the local population strong and self-sufficient is the only appropriate form of husbandry for a free-mating animal. The veterinary model of husbandry, combined with a highly lackadaisical approach to reproduction, is an ongoing disaster for wild bees and the ecologies that need them.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I've had to use old tired boxes many times but am on a constant improvement plan. I can't see any justification for choosing to use ropey boxes.

Roland, I don't. I too am on an ongoing home-improvement plan. I don't deliberately subject any colonies to dampness. This winter we have have lots and lots of rain, very often accompanied by high winds, and a spell of very cold weather coming onto wetted hives hasn't, in my view, done the weakest any favours. That's something that happens in animal husbandry. It snows: sheep die etc.

A local topfruit man is characterised by his pruning manager as a 'safari farmer'. What is meant is that he does as little as possible - because doing costs - and accepts a smaller crop than those who prune and spray unremittingly. So, among other things, I'm a bit of a safari beekeeper. I'd rather have 60 hives and lose a few than 30 that I've spent just as much time and money on.

But there is more to it than that. I do want to lose the weaker genes. Winter is the time that happens. Its nature's way of keeping the population strong.

A story I've told before (that comes from a work of fiction, but still has force). In 1930's Kabul, a western doctor observes:

"These kids play in open sewers all day. There is no effective medical service, and at least half die from infection before the age of 10. But those that live are never ill. They are fit and strong, live long lives, and make the best warriors in the world. That's why neither East nor West will ever conquer Afghanistan."

The one thing I know for certain is that no matter how good the season is I only ever get a crop from the colonies that are alive to do the work.

The healthier your bees are from the core upward, the better your crops will be, and the less you'll need to attend to them. I could make a thousand nucs this summer from some of the strongest bees in the country. Can you say the same?

 

[rolande]

I could make a thousand nucs this summer from some of the strongest bees in the country. Can you say the same?

No

 

[fian]

1. I simply follow a more natural path, I let the bees have their criteria, the same one that they have been using for millions of years. Regarding management as a beekeeper, I try to review the actions every year in order to reduce hive mortality.
2. However, his last statement was "hive killed by damp" a claim that does not hold up in any scientific study.
4. Diversity is always needed, the greater the diversity, the greater the probability of survival of the species, since it has a greater genetic range to face difficulties.
Finally, the ones that worry me are the ones I have in the apiary, the wildlife ones (if there are any) are not my business since I am a beekeeper, I am not a scientist, biologist or forest ranger to carry out that work. If you are so concerned about these wild populations perhaps you should restrict commercial beekeeping in natural and protected areas.

 

[Beesnaturally]

1. I simply follow a more natural path, I let the bees have their criteria, the same one that they have been using for millions of years. Regarding management as a beekeeper, I try to review the actions every year in order to reduce hive mortality.

Oh yes, nothing more natural than medicating bees to keep them alive on an ongoing basis

2. However, his last statement was "hive killed by damp" a claim that does not hold up in any scientific study.

Please stop misrepresenting me. This amounts to telling lies. As well as being incoherent.

4. Diversity is always needed, the greater the diversity, the greater the probability of survival of the species, since it has a greater genetic range to face difficulties.

Bees have absolutely no problem maintaining ample diversity. Each colony has up to 20 fathers for heaven's sake!

Finally, the ones that worry me are the ones I have in the apiary, the wildlife ones (if there are any) are not my business since I am a beekeeper, I am not a scientist, biologist or forest ranger to carry out that work. If you are so concerned about these wild populations perhaps you should restrict commercial beekeeping in natural and protected areas.

Restricting people is unpopular (though government bodies regulate beekeeping and most of everything else - and arguing for more and less regulation in a multitude of areas is absolutely fine).

Showing people the facts allows them to make informed choices. They can do what they will inside the law. Most people here are quite happy to act outside the law too.

 

[fian]

Oh yes, nothing more natural than medicating bees to keep them alive on an ongoing basis

Please stop misrepresenting me. This amounts to telling lies. As well as being incoherent.

Bees have absolutely no problem maintaining ample diversity. Each colony has up to 20 fathers for heaven's sake!

Restricting people is unpopular (though government bodies regulate beekeeping and most of everything else - and arguing for more and less regulation in a multitude of areas is absolutely fine).

Showing people the facts allows them to make informed choices. They can do what they will inside the law. Most people here are quite happy to act outside the law too.

1. If I do two treatments throughout the year, one at the beginning of spring and another one month after removing the supers for harvest.
By the way, in Spain, an annual varroa treatment is mandatory and must be certified, signed and stamped by the veterinarian in the farm diary. There are also mechanical or physical procedures to control varroa.
2. Deleting comments it is difficult to demonstrate what you have written, but the colleagues who have read this post in the last week know who the liar is.
3. So as long as I don't have 20 genetic and Darwinian ways to deal with varroa, to avoid consanguinity, I prefer to continue with my procedure.
4. And where are the tests of your procedure if they are only aimed at preserving wild populations. It is not a matter of unilateral reduction (like those who advocate sin or promote the suppression of the treatment of the importation of queens), it is a matter of modulating the intensity of the restrictions depending on the ecological niche where the apiary is located. diversity

 

[Beesnaturally]

1. If I do two treatments throughout the year, one at the beginning of spring and another one month after removing the supers for harvest.
By the way, in Spain, an annual varroa treatment is mandatory and must be certified, signed and stamped by the veterinarian in the farm diary. There are also mechanical or physical procedures to control varroa.
2. Deleting comments it is difficult to demonstrate what you have written, but the colleagues who have read this post in the last week know who the liar is.
3. So as long as I don't have 20 genetic and Darwinian ways to deal with varroa, to avoid consanguinity, I prefer to continue with my procedure.
4. And where are the tests of your procedure if they are only aimed at preserving wild populations. It is not a matter of unilateral reduction (like those who advocate sin or promote the suppression of the treatment of the importation of queens), it is a matter of modulating the intensity of the restrictions depending on the ecological niche where the apiary is located. diversity

I think this exchange has run its course. Good luck to you.

 

[Ian123]

I do have to ask……. By continually exposing bees to damp are you hoping bees will naturally develop a waterproof layer.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...ient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#imgrc=W6tBlhJ9qc6gjM

 

[fian]

I think this exchange has run its course. Good luck to you.

Like small children, I get angry and don't play. That does not mean that I have to apologize for having said that you had deleted comments, but I was looking for a specific one and could not find it. Even so, I reiterate that I have not misrepresented anything and I recommend that you read YOUR comment 460.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I do have to ask……. By continually exposing bees to damp are you hoping bees will naturally develop a waterproof layer.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=b...ient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#imgrc=W6tBlhJ9qc6gjM

I can't open the link; but yes. There is a strain of bees in, I believe Madagascar, that have what are effectively oilskins. They operate as lifeguards for the Madagascan fishing industry, whose main catch is the very valuable coral crab, a distant relative of parasitical mites.
Oddly, they resemble little skeps.
There is a lesson here I feel sure.

I'm struggling though to keep all my hives properly waterlogged, and in need of about 28 miles of hosepipe should you come across any.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I could make a thousand nucs this summer from some of the strongest bees in the country. Can you say the same?

Heavens. With the price of nucs coupled with their guaranteed success you’d make a killing.

 

[Apiarist]

I see we're talking about humidity, etc.

For those interested, some years back I did an experiment and artificially increased the humidity in four hives (research has shown that varroa effectively cannot reproduce above 80% humidity); I'll give you the punch line, two died and the other two were almost dead when I decided to give up... it was before the research that showed the bees prioritized maintaining humidity to just below 80%, over maintenance of temperature, etc.

In short I gave up ... when I realized my theory was wrong, but first I had to realize I was wrong .....

 

[Beesnaturally]

I see we're talking about humidity, etc.

For those interested, some years back I did an experiment and artificially increased the humidity in four hives (research has shown that varroa effectively cannot reproduce above 80% humidity); I'll give you the punch line, two died and the other two were almost dead when I decided to give up... it was before the research that showed the bees prioritized maintaining humidity to just below 80%, over maintenance of temperature, etc.

In short I gave up ... when I realized my theory was wrong, but first I had to realize I was wrong .....

Cancel that hose pipe!

 

[user 6228]

yeah, I do!

I think you have assumed that any and all human provided accommodation is always an improvement on what the Feral/wild bees can find themselves. Polystyrene hives only get part way to the luxury of a tree hollow. Will you chop down all the remaining trees for the bees own good?
Thin walled hives are an invention of 80 years ago, based on some very poor research and some conclusion leaping by interpreters of the research, maintained the repetition of a mantra that requires the suspension of the most very basic law of physics.