why

[irishguy]

I have been looking over the plans in a book I got (building beehives for dummies) and have noticed that the national hive would be alot more complicated than the langstroth hive for the diy-er. The reason why I say this is that on the national hive we have the hands rails but with a few difficult cuts rather than have just the finger joints that's on the langstroth and have a rabbet cut so the frames can sit on.

I'm just curious as to why this is. Wouldn't it be easier just to follow the same construction method of the langstroth but with the interior measurements of the national.

 

[betterbee]

just make a smith hive,if i was starting again and making all my own hives smith would be my preferred hive for simplicity
martin

 

[irishguy]

just make a smith hive,if i was starting again and making all my own hives smith would be my preferred hive for simplicity
martin

How different are they. TBH I've never really looked into a Smith hive. I just thought everyone in Ireland and UK used the nationals. are the frames the same?

 

[protheroe]

nationals are pretty basic to make,the joints are straight forward.the box joints on a langstroth can be difficult to cut accurately without a decent jig.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I have been looking over the plans in a book I got (building beehives for dummies) and have noticed that the national hive would be alot more complicated than the langstroth hive for the diy-er. The reason why I say this is that on the national hive we have the hands rails but with a few difficult cuts rather than have just the finger joints that's on the langstroth and have a rabbet cut so the frames can sit on.

I'm just curious as to why this is. Wouldn't it be easier just to follow the same construction method of the langstroth but with the interior measurements of the national.

I make plywood 14 x 12 Nationals. The cuts for the panels are simple. For the top and bottom rails I use softwood and cut the rebates on my table saw using depth of blade setting and the width fence. The rain-shed slope on the rails isn't absolutely necessary but my saw (an Elu) gives the option of angling the blade off vertical. Seal the edges of the ply and treat the outside with fencelife weatherproofing. It helps to cut several at once.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Wouldn't it be easier just to follow the same construction method of the langstroth but with the interior measurements of the national.

No, because of the long lugs on the standard national frames, hence the Smith hive design, basically same frame, but with short lugs.

The older design was just box jointed, with packed out interior end walls.

 

[Ruary]

How different are they...... are the frames the same?

The Smith uses the same size of frame as the National, but the lugs are shorter.
It a simple hive to make.
It is used in Ireland and is very popular in Scotland.

 

[oliver90owner]

Ig, you have a PM

 

[ugcheleuce]

I have noticed that the National Hive would be a lot more complicated than the Langstroth hive for the DIY-er. The reason why I say this is that on the National Hive we have the hands rails but with a few difficult cuts rather than have just the finger joints that's on the Langstroth, and have a rabbet cut so the frames can sit on.

The National Hive takes frames with 4 cm long ears (lugs), whereas Langstroths take frames with short ears. The long ears have to rest on something. What the National Hive plan designer has done is to incorporate the hand rail into the frame rest, which is a little more complex to do, but results in a smaller hive box with the same internal dimensions.

The Dutch "spaarkast" takes the same frames as the National, but has a simpler design that looks a lot more langstrothesk... although to accommodate the longer ears, it has separate frame rests inside the box (this makes the Spaarkast hive somewhat larger on the outside, but with the same internal dimensions).

http://www.imkerpedia.nl/downloads/Spaarkast-Henk_Klok.pdf
(two additional plans here)

If you want to make frame rests for a National Hive using a rabbet cut, the outer wall at that point would have to be 6 cm thick, which would make your hive box very heavy. Not to mention you'd have to make a 3-4 cm deep rabbet cut.

==

But I think you should first decide whether to use Langstroth or National frames, because they are rather different.

A Langstroth brood box will be heavier than a National brood box, and you'd need more National boxes to get the same amount of brood space as a Langstroth box, for example. An 11-frame National box has 17% less comb area than a 10-frame Langstroth box (two Langstroth brood boxes equals two-and-a-half National brood boxes). The honey supers are about the same size, however: a 10-frame National honey super has the same comb area as an 8-frame Langstroth honey super.

 

[Hivemaker.]

A Langstroth brood box will be heavier than a National brood box,

Depends on which size Langstroth box, and which size National box.

 

[ugcheleuce]

A Langstroth brood box will be heavier than a National brood box, and you'd need more National boxes to get the same amount of brood space as a Langstroth box, for example.

Depends on which size Langstroth box, and which size National box.

The original poster is using a book called "Building Beehives for Dummies" by Howland Blackiston. I don't have that book, but is not unlikely that the Langstroth plan that he has access to is for a 10-frame box and the National plan for an 11-frame box. My comment related to those sized boxes.

If you want a Langstroth brood box that is the same weight as a National brood box, and if you consider only comb surface as a measure of weight (not e.g. wood weight), then you'll have to use 26% more National frames than Langstroth frames. If you accept that, then a 10-frame Langstroth box would have the same weight as a 13.5-frame National box, and an 11-frame National box would have the same weight as an 8-frame Langstroth box.

 

[Hivemaker.]

If you want a Langstroth brood box that is the same weight as a National brood box,

Depends, any box that has brood in is a brood box, some use all mediums,some deeps, jumbos...and there are around 90 sub species of Langstroth, and three common national sizes.

Edit. But of course neither of us knows what is in a book with that title at this moment.

 

[mbc]

just make a smith hive,if i was starting again and making all my own hives smith would be my preferred hive for simplicity
martin

 

[itma]

Simplest way to describe a Smith is to say that it uses the same size foundation sheets as a National, but otherwise is very like a Langstroth - short lugs ( & thus a cheaper, easier, DIY box) with top bee space.

Todays "modified National" is largely determined by its long frame lugs.

 

[ugcheleuce]

If you want a Langstroth brood box that is the same weight as a National brood box...

Depends, any box that has brood in is a brood box...

Tell me, what universally understood generic word for the box that we all know we are talking about would cause you to be happy?

Yes, from a nit-picking point of view, any box with brood in it can be called a "brood box", any box that is above another box can be called a "super", any box that is deeper than any other box can be called a "deep" and likewise the other box in the pair can be called a "shallow", etc, etc. Oh, and any box that is used any particular country can be called "national". But you, I and the original poster all know what we mean when we say "national", without having to search for some other odd word that is nit-pick-proof.

And there are around 90 sub species of Langstroth...

Yes, for example Dave Cushman's site lists a number of those subspecies. For the record, the subspecie that I use for my calculations has a comb area of 0.186 m2 per frame. About four-fifths of the frames listed on Cushman's site have a size that is broadly similar to the size that I have used here.

...and three common national sizes.

I know of only one common National size of the box that I had previously called a "brood box" but which you want me to use another word for to avoid creating the impression among impressionable beekeepers that only that box can be used for brood. Can you tell me of the other two?

But of course neither of us knows what is in a book with that title at this moment.

Fortunately Howland Blackiston also write "Beekeeping for Dummies", which I do have. On page 291 of the 2nd edition he has a plan for the Langstroth hive he uses. The Langstroth in that book has a frame whose height and width is within 3 mm of the height and width of the Langstroth frame that I had used for all my calculations, so I'm quite happy with what I wrote in my previous posts. I hope you don't think it is unreasonable or unrealistic of me to assume that the dimensions of the Langstroth in Blackinston's second book in the series would be the same as the one in the first book in the series.

 

[irishguy]

What actually is the size of a national brood and super box in mms. When one rests its frames in the boxes, how much space is there between the next frame on top and even the sides

 

[Paul in Poole]

Surely it depends how you want to keep your bees, ie double brood is good on a National but to heavy on a Langstroth or maybe 14x12 depending on your method of swarm control.
I like the longer frame lugs of the national and it is cheaper to buy National frames.
NB.A full brood box is very heavy!

 

[irishguy]

Surely it depends how you want to keep your bees, ie double brood is good on a National but to heavy on a Langstroth or maybe 14x12 depending on your method of swarm control.
I like the longer frame lugs of the national and it is cheaper to buy National frames.
NB.A full brood box is very heavy!

Why you ask this. Is there different spaces between supers and broods. Say it was a brood and half, what spaces between frames in a hive like this

 

[ugcheleuce]

What actually is the size of a national brood and super box in mms?

Have a look:
http://www.beesource.com/files/britishnational.pdf

When one rests its frames in the boxes, how much space is there between the next frame on top and even the sides?

Based on the drawing in the PDF mentioned above, I'd say 6.35 mm above/below the frames, and 8.13 mm or more between the frame and the frame rest (assuming a frame ear of 40 mm).

Let's hope someone here who actually has the hive and frames will tell you the answer as measured with a measuring tape.

 

[Paul in Poole]

Think of it like this you are lifting a low down brood box and in a National hive you have a great long hand hold and it will be not such a strain on your back as maybe a Langstroth would. Then think about handling the frames do you like long or short lugs. When you have made your choice of hive you may decide to build or buy but don't choose the hive because its easy to build.