Why do 7-day inspections work - when they do?

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I can't get my head round the arithmetic. It takes c. 4.5 days for a queen cell to be sealed / capped. A just-started queen cell will be sealed 2.5 days before you next open the hive, if you inspect every seven days. And that presumes that you can spot a new queen cell, less than a day old. If you miss these, queen cells might have been sealed 3-4 days before you return.

And yet 7-day inspections do seem to work.

I was taught that a swarm is likely to depart as soon as the first queen cell is sealed. That may or may not be true. Even allowing for weather delaying swarming, it seems to me that swarms might not leave till a cell has been sealed for at least a couple of days.

If that's not the case, what is the rationale behind 7-day inspections?

I asked someone about this recently. I didn't get the answer i was looking for but I have the distinct impression that I'm missing something obvious. It won't be the first time.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Queen cells are sealed 8/9 days. You should be able to spot a 1 day old cell. That’s why 7 day inspections work
Sometimes 5 day inspections are warranted.

 

[ericbeaumont]

can't get my head round the arithmetic

I've never understood why 9 or 10-day inspections work and would love to hear why.

 

[Do224]

Sometimes 5 day inspections are warranted.

When?

 

[Parsonage Bees]

It takes c. 4.5 days for a queen cell to be sealed / capped.

. . from a 1 day old larva. +3 days as an egg = 7.5 days. ?

Queen cups that can go on to be swarm cells should be checked for eggs and the eggs removed each inspection. ? Must admit I've not removed an egg if found. That could lose me 2.5 days and the QC will be sealed before next inspection.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Okay, I think I know where I'm going wrong. I thought that the bees would start drawing a cell at day 4 - when the egg hatched, and like the scenario with grafts into plastic cups. But is it the case that a queen cell is started with day 1 eggs?

I've never paid much attention to eggs in play cups. Maybe I should now?

 

[Parsonage Bees]

If you take away the queen (eg nuc or demaree) or kill her or graft a larva, emergency queen cells can be started immediately from newly hatched eggs in any cell. They just continue to feed royal jelly. Then you have got less than a week before the cell is capped. But the hive has not made up it's mind to swarm so they won't have left. (? probably)

My understanding is that eggs can be laid in cups and eaten again repeatedly before they hatch. Once they have "all their ducks in a row" do they let the egg hatch and start feeding it royal jelly. And the clock is ticking those 4.5ish days.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When?

In. Swarmy year like last year ( fantastic spring with lots of forage, good weather and fast spring build up) colonies were swarming before queen cells were sealed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Queen cups that can go on to be swarm cells should be checked for eggs and the eggs removed each inspection. ?

I don’t. I look in again three days later.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Queen cells are sealed 8/9 days. You should be able to spot a 1 day old cell. That’s why 7 day inspections work
Sometimes 5 day inspections are warranted.

Sorry that this needs spelling out to me. Queen cells are sealed on day 8-9. I thought they were started on day 4. I'm thinking of the 4.5 days that it takes to build and seal a cell around a plastic Nicot cup. Are the cells are started on day 1, when the egg is just laid? I thought the process and timing of cell building was the same whether on comb or in plastic cups. And if so, the cells are only visible for 4.5 days max before being sealed.

Happy to be corrected!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Egg to Queen is 16 days. Sealed at 8/9
An egg in a Queen cup is day one if the bees intend to proceed. That’s why I check these after three days.
You’re right though that you won’t spot an emergency cell at day one though but you should be checking all queen cups for contents in the swarming season.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

I've never understood why 9 or 10-day inspections work and would love to hear why.

Think this is a financial calculation. I can have x number more apiaries with the same workforce and am likely to miss n number of swarms. The result being +y kgs more honey.

I don’t. I look in again three days later.

I've probably got away with waiting 7 days because I tweak the cups open with hive tool. Eyesight not able to see eggs in cups easily. They can't repair the cup without removing the egg maybe.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Think this is a financial calculation

Or a clipped queen?

 

[Do224]

An egg in a Queen cup is day one

Could it not also be day 2 or 3?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Could it not also be day 2 or 3?

Yes which is why you look in again in three days

 

[drex]

Never say never with bees . However they build emergency cells when they have no queen, they will not be in "swarm mode", so highly unlikely to swarm.
7 day inspections work well for me. Not lost a swarm for several years, but I do employ a fair bit of swarm prevention ( plenty of room, swapping positions of double BB, Demaree)

 

[Nannysbees]

Ordered a new queen to be delivered yesterday,Tuesday, email from royal mail can't deliver til Thursday!!! Hope she'll be ok

 

[Dodge]

When?

Location. I have a beehive in my urban garden and absolutely can't afford for a swarm to go.

 

[Do224]

Never say never with bees . However they build emergency cells when they have no queen, they will not be in "swarm mode", so highly unlikely to swarm.
7 day inspections work well for me. Not lost a swarm for several years, but I do employ a fair bit of swarm prevention ( plenty of room, swapping positions of double BB, Demaree)

Do you find you have to nuc the queen from your double broods at some point in the season, or do they not even try to swarm at all?

I’m trying double brood for the first time this season. So far one has tried to swarm (I nuc’d the queen and left them to re-queen) and then tried again as soon as the new queen was mated.

The other has been fine so far but I have found eggs in queen cups on a couple of occasions…once about a month ago and once today. I just tore them down and so far has been fine.

I recently double brooded my third colony and plan to do the same on my fourth in the next few days.

Incidentally, do you ever perform a demaree on a colony that is already on double brood?

 

[Swarm]

Do you find you have to nuc the queen from your double broods at some point in the season, or do they not even try to swarm at all?

I’m trying double brood for the first time this season. So far one has tried to swarm (I nuc’d the queen and left them to re-queen) and then tried again as soon as the new queen was mated.

The other has been fine so far but I have found eggs in queen cups on a couple of occasions…once about a month ago and once today. I just tore them down and so far has been fine.

I recently double brooded my third colony and plan to do the same on my fourth in the next few days.

Incidentally, do you ever perform a demaree on a colony that is already on double brood?

You will find that the answer to your question can be different each season, sometimes you will need to take action with each colony and sometimes not. I hear plenty of beekeepers advising keeping young queens yet I've found some older queens to be less swarm prone and equally or more prolific than younger queens. I have one queen in particular, in her fourth season, made no swarm attempt and lays up a large colony every yea, until this year. On the flip side, I have young queens making swarm cells in lesser colonies.
The anti climax of late spring/early summer, your wonderful, vibrant colony doing everything just right, big nest, filling supers and then you find charged cells!! I was discussing this with my landowner just a week ago, every year is the same, apart from my one miracle year in 2022 when they all sat tight and behaved. If only every year was like that.
I am due to check a new 2023 Amm colony tomorrow, they came through winter as a nuc and have been very busy. They went into a hive and then double brood with a couple of supers before I gave her a third brood box and split them via an access board and then a double screen board. I have since split the top brood box away again into two nucs and added a third super, Last inspection I was finding cups with eggs and put them back on double brood in the hope (vain hope) that the extra space will curb their enthusiasm. I was a little disappointed, considering her brood nest has been depleted twice already but hey ho, that's bees for you!! And my intention was to raise some queens from her so I should be happy.