Which hive tool is best?

[Silly Bee]

Sorry, was looking at the dummy board reply.

 

[chrismcd]

Just to keep the debate going.

I have tried a number of different hive tools and have settled on the large J type with the big rectangular 'spade' blade at the other end.

It's spade end is great for levering frames apart - slowly to let the bees get out of the way!

it has a decent 'step' above the J so that you can get a good purchase on an adjacent frame and then again have lots of leverage so that you can lift the selected frame smoothly. I find the 'bump' on the small J tools allows them to slip at critical moments.

Finally, the idea of crushing the queen under the lug gives me pause. In my limited experience most queens will move away from light fairly fast, even when you use cover cloths. Is it really a problem?

 

[Dishmop]

As I cant see how the queen would be under the lug to start with, I therefore assume the worry is that she might go under it after you have lifted it.......but fail to see how any bee would be crushed after the lug had been lifted let alone the queen. I lift one end... stick my finger under it and then hook the other end up.

 

[hallshoney]

i use claw scraper very handy and nice to hold i also keep a couple of s type stainless steel wall ties also very handy and cheap. but then i only use plastic ends and not hoffmans which i found just got constantly stuck together costing time scraping propilis of 4 sides of aframe

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I have used a flatie for 30+ years now but find I prefer the J type on my poly hives. I was not expecting this, so use different tools on different hive types. I have however lost 2 J types this year but still have my original flatie from 1977! I also have a monster long hive tool for when I need to sort out the mess of others. I suspect they normally sell to bee inspectors! I like that German J hive tool but would always be up for any premium British component in preference or any other tools from that firm . British tools means british jobs and my money will go there first. I now travel with both types, and have spares in the car

 

[Poly Hive]

RE INTLD comment you have to bear in mind he is not using the frames that we are au fait with. He uses stronger ones that are imported hence his comment on the weakness at the joint.

Sorry to put words in your mouth Murray and prob wrongly but that is my understanding.

I am amused though at different tools for different hives...LOL How did I manage one HT for 8 types? I must have struggled more than I thought...LOL!

PH

 

[Nic Rhodes]

the joys of loosing hive tools means that you can actually try new things rather than live with what you have used for decades with no thought

 

[REDWOOD]

If you are a new beekeeper before you get your bees buy both tools and practice dismanteling your hive and lifting frames holding your hive tool in one hand and the pretend to remove wild comb from the top and bottom with your tool, find which one feels best for you, remember what ever one you decide on it should bee made of stainless steel so it can be disinfected or buy a tool per hive and hang it on your hive as this will stop nasty things running a mock. I use the scraper type and make them myself a bit longer than you buy as I use 14x12 boxes and they reach down the sides to remove wax. Good luck making your choice.

 

[tonybloke]

am I missing something here? What part do you lever under then?

why lever under any part of a frame? after removing the dummy board, frames can be moved apart, then lifted out by hand.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

The one big thing this I noticed was how few newbees had be shown HOW to use a hive tool properly, in fact that included many more experienced beekeepers also..

 

[REDWOOD]

Who has been levering under frames ? and most new beekeepers are trained by fera bee inspectors, its the old ones that I have seen using the tool in the wrong way

 

[Into the lions den]

after removing the dummy board,.

We do not use dummy boards either. Had several hundred came with a Langstroth unit we bought about 20 odd years ago. Cedar they were too. Nice scented firewood.

 

[iand]

remember what ever one you decide on it should bee made of stainless steel

We have a s/s hive tool and find it bends very easily. It is now relegated to the shed as a spare. We now use a much more durable spring steel hive tool. As ITLD says 70 hives a day, for days on end is a bit of a test. The operators arm may fall off but our version of hive tool is still going strong. It cleans up nicely with the scourer as well.

 

[Mosquito]

Do what I did.
Buy 1 of each.
Handy having a spare.

 

[Heather]

I have 5 - keep losing the little......, and sneak them into the dishwasher when he isn't looking

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

why lever under any part of a frame? after removing the dummy board, frames can be moved apart, then lifted out by hand.

Some bees could propolise a frame so it sticks to a vacuum. Certainly one of my hives I need a tool to shift any of the frames. My personal preferred weapon of destruction is a steel J purchased from MB, very nice tool.

 

[Into the lions den]

As I cant see how the queen would be under the lug to start with, I therefore assume the worry is that she might go under it after you have lifted it.

The queen can be anywhere at any time. Especially with A.m.m. types, which are much more likely to be runners, it is not at all uncommon for the queen to be moving between combs or just making a rapid exit from the working area, by using the gap between the end bars and the side wall as transit route. If she is in that area and you shove a tool of ANY kind in there without seeing exactly what is going on you risk nipping bees, one of which might just be the queen.

Bear in mind that, relatively speaking, we are doing vast numbers and see things many of you may never see in a lifetime, or at least over a large number of hive seasons.

Introducing a J (or any for that matter) tool into that area HAS resulted in dead queens. Not many, but it does not need to be many to make the economics skewed against the practice.

No bees get under the lugs? try working bees, esp black ones, with bare hands for a few weeks, and see how many nips you get on your fingers when you encounter a bee that has wandered into that area.

What type of hive tool you, as an individual, might use is entirely up to yourself, it is not a big deal. As with so many other aspects of bees the effect of a certain item or its use vis a vis an alternative only become apparent over a large sample size. Over small numbers you do not notice or it is insignificant.

There are so many examples of that, where what is on offer or is conventional is actually not the best, and only over a big sample size does the truth emerge.

Things most will never notice include such things as hive tool type and minor queen loss factors. If it happened to say 20 hives only.............less than 1%.......the cost is into 4 figures.

The biggest single benefit was doing away with the National hive unit we had.............working bottom bee space boxes costs time and money, a team could do between 20 and 40 less hives in a day at the same cost, and the attrition rate of long lugged frames ran at about three times that of short lugged. All items of gear less simple and higher cost. Primarily in time and fuel, but it cost £7.40 extra to run a National as compared to a Smith for a season. Not a vast sum.........but multiply that by 500...........then the penny drops about apparently small things that add up to a lot over a big sample. On an amateur scale none of this matters as you are not into having to think of time/cost analyses. As soon as you go commercial these things all count.

The list of things of this nature is a long one.

 

[Dishmop]

I'm still at a loss to see how your people remove the frames without using a tool under the lug. I've never seen it done any other way.

No bees get under the lugs? try working bees, esp black ones, with bare hands for a few weeks, and see how many nips you get on your fingers when you encounter a bee that has wandered into that area.

thats a differetn matter.. I was asking about your reference to bees being under that lugs and get killed if you use the tool under the lug to free the frame..

 

[Hivemaker.]

I'm still at a loss to see how your people remove the frames without using a tool under the lug. I've never seen it done any other way.

I don't know how they do it,but i simply used the flat end of the tool to separate the frames,between the top of the side bars,just enough apart to be able to then lift the frame vertically (without rolling bees) with my fingers. Prizing up under end lugs,especially long ones, can snap the lugs off,plus the end you prize up can push the side bar on that end of the frame against the inner side wall of the box,and crushing any bees on the side walls, or frame side bar in the process.
I often don't take out the first two or three frames, if its a single brood box,just move them towards the outside of the box so i can lift the frames i wish to look at

 

[drumgerry]

I don't know how they do it,but i simply used the flat end of the tool to separate the frames,between the top of the side bars,just enough apart to be able to then lift the frame vertically (without rolling bees) with my fingers.

That's pretty much how I do it. I use the J end though. Inserted in the space between the lugs, lever the frames apart on both sides then lift smoothly and gently with the fingers. I don't think I've ever inserted a hive tool under a lug before. I could foresee problems with the durability of my national frames if I did.