Where the entrance should be

[Nirakaro]

My three hives – like every hive design I've ever seen – have the entrance at or near the bottom. I've noticed though, that if I give the bees any hint of an entry near the top (whether deliberately or through poor quality control in the woodworking department), they'll use that almost exclusively, mostly ignoring the 'proper' entrance at the bottom.
The only explanations I can think of are –

• Beekeepers have good reasons to prefer bottom entrances, even though the bees don't.
• I've noticed something that generations of beekeepers and hive designers have failed to spot.
• Or I've just got some very eccentric bees.

None of those seem remotely plausible, so, anyone got a better explanation to help me out here?

 

[Murox]

I don't think it matters too much. bees will use whatever entrance they find convenient, they are opportunists. Skeps had entrances at the top as did clay pipe hives of the ancient Egyptians. Some beekeepers use both upper and lower entrances according to season. I have some homemade long hives that use an entrance about one third of the way from the top - all seem to work just fine for the bees.

 

[Amari]

Yes, that's been my experience over the years. Many of my boxes are worn so there are gaps between the boxes or the mortice joints at the corners have tiny gaps. The bees love these alternative entrances - some could be robbers but some have pollen sacks so are entering their home. Later in the season wasps join in.
Fortunately all my hives are adjacent to hedges so I take a branch and choose suitably sized twigs to close the gaps - quick and effective.
In other countries there is the practice of having an additional entrance in the top super. At BeeTradex 2020 I bought a kit of plastic inserts to create extra entrances but the bees scarcely used them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have a box up in a tree. It has two entrances. One at the top and one at the bottom. In the summer bees use both in the autumn they propolise the bottom one

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've noticed though, that if I give the bees any hint of an entry near the top (whether deliberately or through poor quality control in the woodworking department), they'll use that almost exclusively

I haven't found that, during the season many of mine have two entrances due to using Demarree as swarm avoidance, they then use both entrances, but still mainly use the lower one

 

[hemo]

My three hives – like every hive design I've ever seen – have the entrance at or near the bottom. I've noticed though, that if I give the bees any hint of an entry near the top (whether deliberately or through poor quality control in the woodworking department), they'll use that almost exclusively, mostly ignoring the 'proper' entrance at the bottom.

Those bees maybe or not be opportune robber bees bypassing the security guards.

 

[blackcloud]

We put entrances at the bottom so during kit manipulation you will always default to having that entrance regardless of changing configuration and possibly forgetting to provide one

 

[Finman]

I cannot see any problems in entrance in bottom.

* Bees drop all rubbish to the bottom and move out

* brood nest need to have high temperatu 35C and it stays better so in bottom entraces.

* I keep medieval entrances in brood boxes. Bees like to fly via them. In supers bees do not need entrances.

* When if the entrance is in upper boxes, what happens then when you inspect the hive or take honey off.

*** Too late reinvent the wheel

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I cannot see any problems in entrance in bottom.

And where would we be without an exit there?

 

[Antipodes]

I don't think it matters too much. bees will use whatever entrance they find convenient, they are opportunists. Skeps had entrances at the top as did clay pipe hives of the ancient Egyptians. Some beekeepers use both upper and lower entrances according to season. I have some homemade long hives that use an entrance about one third of the way from the top - all seem to work just fine for the bees.

 

[Dolo]

Interesting about temperature. If hot air rises would the topmost super not be the warmest place, like the air in a room just below the ceiling? Anyone measured this at any time?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Interesting about temperature. If hot air rises would the topmost super not be the warmest place, like the air in a room just below the ceiling? Anyone measured this at any time?

No. The warmest place is in the cluster round the brood
But yes, cold air displaces warm.

 

[JamezF]

There was a piece in BBKA News a few years back written by someone who had tried moving the entrance from the bottom of his hives to somewhere near the top. My recollection is that he found the colonies didn't build up as fast and didn't produce as large a crop as a result. It's entirely possible of course that the effects he observed were unrelated to the movement of the entrance, perhaps caused by something else he was doing when he managed those colonies that he may not even have been aware of.

James

 

[JamezF]

Interesting about temperature. If hot air rises would the topmost super not be the warmest place, like the air in a room just below the ceiling? Anyone measured this at any time?

I feel sure someone must have collected some data on hive temperatures though I can't find anything definitive online after a quick search. There are a lot of people making unsubstantiated claims about how temperature varies around a hive, but often they don't present the information in a way that suggests they really have a good grasp of the physics.

The example of the heat distribution in a room is probably a bit too simplistic to be honest. Put a cup of hot tea in your room, and where's the warmest air then? In the case of the hive, heat is being lost to the environment through the walls, roof and floor, being absorbed (and released) by all the "stuff" inside the hive and being generated by the bees wherever they happen to be working in the hive.

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There are a lot of people making unsubstantiated claims about how temperature varies around a hive

You've read (or tried to wade through) Wedmore's 'on the ventilation of beehives' then

 

[Curly green finger's]

Aye 34c winter cluster mantle. Summer 35c.
Out side edge of cluster 15c.
Ambient temp of hive outside of the cluster not to different to the outside temperature.
13c ambient temp to trigger declustering and nest building.
Humidity is harder to record.

 

[JamezF]

I've found some interesting images here (and on the "related" pages) taken with an infra-red camera, mostly during winter by the looks of it.

I really need an IR camera as a toy Not at the prices FLIR charge though.

James

 

[Nirakaro]

Since we've drifted of-topic onto temperature, I have another question:

I helped the bees through the winter by fixing panels of 50mm polyurethane foam insulation (rescued from skips) to the outside and top of the hives. AIUI they like to maintain the inside temperature around 38C; given that in Yorkshire the outdoor temperature never approaches that, I assume their temperature control nearly always consists of warming, rather than cooling, the hive. In which case, is there any good reason to remove that 'winter' insulation in the summer?

 

[Boston Bees]

I assume their temperature control nearly always consists of warming, rather than cooling, the hive.

No, in the hottest parts of summer they very much try to cool the hive, by fanning wings etc, and bearding if needed.

If I had wooden hives, and your setup, I would take the side insulation off for summer, but leave the roof insulation.

 

[JamezF]

I'm not averse to the idea of leaving the insulation on all year round in the UK because that's effectively the case in a poly hive and bees don't seem to struggle during the summer in poly hives in my experience, even when there's no top ventilation that would allow excess heat to escape (Are there poly hives with top ventilation? None of mine have any).

Insulation works both ways -- in summer it may well reduce the amount of heat from the Sun that warms the hive structure thereby making it easier for the bees to control the temperature. It may also keep the hive warmer overnight when temperatures drop to a point where the bees would otherwise have to work harder to keep the hive at an optimal temperature.

My gut feeling is that generally bees in the UK will be needing to produce heat to keep the hive warm enough unless it is out in direct sunlight on a hot day, in which case insulation may actually help them, but I've no empirical evidence to support that view. It might be interesting to put an empty wooden hive out in full sun and see how the temperature inside compares with ambient. If I have enough parts available this summer perhaps I'll try that.

James