Where have my queens gone?

[Levitt53]

Ah I thought I was doing so well.

Hive 1. Theee supers on, very old comb in full brood box. Queen was 2016. Added another brood box on top of old one 29/5 with a frame of eggs put into the new box. The frame was drawn out quickly. 11/6 new brood being laid in the new box so I put the QE between the two. I should add that I can't ever find queens so hoped this meant she was in the top. 17/6 there were about 5 what looked like supercedure cells on one frame in the top box. They were sealed which I was surprised at seeing as when I had last inspected they were not there. I was inspecting with a fellow beekeeper on 18/6. There were no QCs in the bottom box. We removed the QE and left them alone. I've been in today and the QCs in the top box have either hatched or torn down, either is possible I guess. I had a quick look through the bottom box but couldn't see eggs but didn't want to disturb them too much in case there was a virgin in there.

Hive 2. Requeened early this year from hive 1 as they were queenless after winter. 17/6 found a few charged QCs. Can't find the queen and only had a nuc so broke down all the QCs bar one. The one I put in my nuc with adhering bees on two frames of BIAS. I know this wasn't a good split but it gave me time until Beekeeping friend came on 18/6. On this inspection the QC in the nuc was being torn down. In the hive we found lots of eggs and one charged QC. We combined the bees and frames from the nuc back and decided to leave for a few days to see what they do. I looked in on 22/6 and this cell was no longer charged and no others had been made and I saw eggs so I left them alone. I've been in today and there was some larvae but I couldn't see any eggs.

I'm a bit gutted as these two colonies have lovely temperaments. I have one other hive which was a swarm I collected. These guys are grumpy as hell as I was hoping to requeen them from one of the other two. Do you think I've just disrupted their rhythms maybe and they've both gone on lay. I don't think they've swarmed as I've checked them regularly as you can see. Lots of rookie errors here I know. Any thoughts.

 

[Levitt53]

Ok well I'll take the silence to mean that I am probably panicking prematurely and just wait to see what happens.

 

[Eyeman]

I assume your Q's wern't clipped?
Hive 1:
5 QC's likely swarm cells not supercedure.
Colony has swarmed, perhaps more than once.
If no further QC's present then likely virgin in hive so leave her in peace to get mated.
If you have access to a test frame (frame of eggs/young larvae then put one it to confirm not Q-.

Hive 2.

On this inspection the QC in the nuc was being torn down

They usually do this if either the Q is in the nuc and you have depleted the flying bees (Likely). Or a virgin has emerged and she is tearing down the other sealed QC (Unlikely).

In the hive we found lots of eggs and one charged QC.

These could have been the eggs that the Q laid yesterday before you removed her in the nuc?

We combined the bees and frames from the nuc back and decided to leave for a few days to see what they do.

Not sure why you decided to do this- were you trying to confuse them?

I've been in today and there was some larvae but I couldn't see any eggs.

They have swarmed. If you have one QC sealed then leave them alone for it to emerge and the virgin to mate.

 

[Levitt53]

Sorry I can't work out the multi quote thing.

No queens are not clipped. Getting a peek at them would be great!

Hive 1. They looked like classic supersedure cells and looked like they had been broken down. I can't see how they could have swarmed as I inspected them 6 days earlier. They were very quick if they had. Anyway either way I agree it's best to leave them alone which I will.

Hive 2. The one cell in the nuc was definitely torn down as we saw the grub. It is possible that the Q was in there. Also the door of the nuc had swung round shut so they might just have been angry as they were trapped and it was hot. The Q was definitely in the hive after we'd put those frames and bees back in there as we did that on 18th and I saw eggs in the hive on 22nd. Obviously I wasn't trying to confuse them! It made sense and still does. We were unsure what they were up to so decide to leave them for a couple of day to see. I can't see when they could have swarmed. I've inspected them regularly, 11th, 17th, 18th, 22nd and 26th June. The charged cell I left there on 18th was empty when I looked on 22nd. It was the same size but had had the grub removed. I'm hoping I've just disrupted her and she'll start laying again soon.

 

[mjt68]

Sorry I can't work out the multi quote thing.

No queens are not clipped. Getting a peek at them would be great!

Hive 1. They looked like classic supersedure cells and looked like they had been broken down. I can't see how they could have swarmed as I inspected them 6 days earlier. They were very quick if they had. Anyway either way I agree it's best to leave them alone which I will.

Hive 2. The one cell in the nuc was definitely torn down as we saw the grub. It is possible that the Q was in there. Also the door of the nuc had swung round shut so they might just have been angry as they were trapped and it was hot. The Q was definitely in the hive after we'd put those frames and bees back in there as we did that on 18th and I saw eggs in the hive on 22nd. Obviously I wasn't trying to confuse them! It made sense and still does. We were unsure what they were up to so decide to leave them for a couple of day to see. I can't see when they could have swarmed. I've inspected them regularly, 11th, 17th, 18th, 22nd and 26th June. The charged cell I left there on 18th was empty when I looked on 22nd. It was the same size but had had the grub removed. I'm hoping I've just disrupted her and she'll start laying again soon.

QCs in first half of season should be treated as swarm cells unless abundant evidence to the contrary. Judging swarm vs supersedure on basis of appearance, position etc. is close to superstition imho. Swarm or supersedure you should have been able to spot something if you inspected 6 days prior to seeing sealed cells.

Hive 2 might have been intending to swarm, you removed queen but not urge to swarm and they may have swarmed after you recombined on open cells or a sealed cell you missed. How old were eggs on the 22nd? Were they standing upright or laying down?

Hive 1 should, if weather behaves and nothing goes wrong, have a new mated queen back so I'd leave alone until mid July. Not sure what's happening in hive 2, might be ok or might be hopelessly queenless. I'd add a test frame from your third hive on your next inspection

 

[Levitt53]

QCs in first half of season should be treated as swarm cells unless abundant evidence to the contrary. Judging swarm vs supersedure on basis of appearance, position etc. is close to superstition imho. Swarm or supersedure you should have been able to spot something if you inspected 6 days prior to seeing sealed cells.

Hive 2 might have been intending to swarm, you removed queen but not urge to swarm and they may have swarmed after you recombined on open cells or a sealed cell you missed. How old were eggs on the 22nd? Were they standing upright or laying down?

Hive 1 should, if weather behaves and nothing goes wrong, have a new mated queen back so I'd leave alone until mid July. Not sure what's happening in hive 2, might be ok or might be hopelessly queenless. I'd add a test frame from your third hive on your next inspection

The other hive is queenless, totally my fault which I won't go into, but they are nasty so I was going to requeen them from either 1 or 2. Bloody hell, I've gone from 3 to 0 in one week.

Hive 1 there was honestly no sign of a queen cell. It was new comb not many bees on it. I can't work that out. I've been religiously inspecting them every weekend. The cells were sealed so I couldn't do anything about it anyway.

Hive 2 I don't know. I'm not experienced enough and can't remember what the eggs were like. I'm gutted. I just did what I could because I couldn't find the queen and had no spares. I was buying time. I'll look in at the weekend and keep everything crossed.

 

[Levitt53]

Ok I've begged a frame of eggs from someone I know of locally.

 

[mjt68]

Remember that a test frame isn't necessary for them to raise a queen from, it is just to see if they are queenless and to help you decide whether introducing a queen is likely to work. You can leave the test frame in to give a new queen but she might not be the best. What's your plan with the third hive? If you're sure they're hopelessly queenless you could halve your problems by uniting with 2, or with 1 when treat has a laying queen back and you know that 3 is queenless (QC on test frame which you remove before combining).

I'd say that when in doubt do nothing and whilst watching and waiting is a good plan, if you'd already split #2, I'd have left them split.

 

[Levitt53]

Thanks, I'll decide at the weekend. We assumed 2 would probably just start swarming prep again but yes if the queen was in the nuc I probably should have left them there. 3 are not nice and I don't want a queen from them so yes I might combine.

 

[mjt68]

Don't be ashamed to buy in queens, provided you're sure the recipient colony truly is queenless.

 

[Levitt53]

Don't be ashamed to buy in queens, provided you're sure the recipient colony truly is queenless.

No I'll be sure, thanks. Where do you get mated queens from? I've e-mailed the only apiary I can see on the Internet near me who sell bees but they don't have any.

 

[mjt68]

No I'll be sure, thanks. Where do you get mated queens from? I've e-mailed the only apiary I can see on the Internet near me who sell bees but they don't have any.

I don't worry about whether they're near me and I don't mind imported queens either. You may, of course, feel differently about these things.

 

[Levitt53]

Well thankfully hive 2 is up and running again. There are lots of eggs now. The queen must have just been taking a break. Hive 1 hopefully is requeening so I'm planning to look in there next weekend. I now have options to requeen my nasty lot.

 

[PaulCarroll]

This has been a strange year for Queens. I have four colonies all of which started with good laying Queens. I have taken relevant anti - swarm procedures when required and I am confident that none of the colonies has left as a swarm. Despite that I have had two colonies where retaining a queen has been difficult with one in particular killing an introduced queen, despite using a cage to do so, indeed I found her dead in the cage. Whilst such losses are irritating, I have found by past experience that rushing for solutions often adds to the problems as the bees themselves have a plan and tend to problem solve as long as there is some larvae and nurse bees available to develop them. I have united one colony now with a stronger one but also now have all hives with good strong queens and hopefully still time for a reasonable harvest from across all three remaining colonies. I may be totally off beam, but I do tend to adopt a rather patient approach to the matter as my own experience of trying to force the issue has often resulted in failure. It does seem from the forum that again this year many beekeeping colleagues for a variety of reasons are encountering queen retention problems - or am I misinterpreting what I am reading??


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[drex]

I think it is Roger Patterson who has been on about queen problems for a number of years. This year I have certainly had my fair share, much more than previously.

 

[PaulCarroll]

Is there a "learned" view on why such as climate, reaction to chemicals or just an evolutionary change?


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[Levitt53]

I can't really comment on the wider situation due to lack of experience. Hive 2 definitely took a week or so off laying. You are right though about waiting to see. My problem was that the problems in all 3 hives happened at the same time. Yikes.

 

[PaulCarroll]

It always seems to happen that way. Danger is you buy a new queen thinking the colony is Q- then discover you missed a virgin queen and your bought queen gets balled and spat out - goodbye £40. I speak from experience a couple of years ago and since then I have tended to wait a little longer before acting to intervene. I have found beekeeping very good for developing patience and accepting frustration.


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[Eyeman]

It always seems to happen that way. Danger is you buy a new queen thinking the colony is Q- then discover you missed a virgin queen and your bought queen gets balled and spat out - goodbye £40. I speak from experience a couple of years ago and since then I have tended to wait a little longer before acting to intervene. I have found beekeeping very good for developing patience and accepting frustration.


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That's the beauty of having abundant Q+ nucs around. Removing the queen from the production colony then uniting it with a 6 frame Q+ nuc rarely runs into problems unless there was a second supercedure queen. Then at your leisure requeen your nuc how you wish.