When to split?

[pargyle]

Absolutely - but when your starting out you don’t even have a clue about what you don’t know yet, so you don’t know what you need to buy in advance. So you can’t plan for a plan you don’t yet know. Reading helps but doing is King.

Ah... but the OP aspires to three hives so two more as well as the one he has... So, three brood boxes (he'll need at least one spare set for manipulations), three floors, three roofs, six supers, three queen excluders, three stands, 30 more brood frames, 60 shallow frames, foundation.

That's a lot of kit that will be signifcantly cheaper in the winter sales or at the early spring shows. At current prices .. even shopping around .. better part of £500 .. in the sales .. Under £300 if you are clever and keep your eyes open. £200 spare will get you thee good queens with a bit left over to put towards an extractor.

Looking to split this side of winter is just not good economics .. next year .. if he wanted to up the anti to four or fve hives (he'd get a honey crop and hopefully sell a bit) then I'd be the first to say split one of the three later in the year .. and perhaps take a couple of nucs through the next winter with a view to selling one in spring and keeping the other. Another £150 to add to the honey sales and it's starting to pay for itself as a hobby.

Unless the OP has money to burn .. makes much more sense financially. I live in Hampshire .. parts are very good but it varies. Where I live in the Costa del Fareham I don't get massive flows but the season starts early as the climate is mild and then it's generally a steady flow right the way through to the Ivy in October... but this year's wet June .. little beggars cleared just about everything they had stored in spring.

 

[eltalia]

@pargyle
".. even shopping around .. better part of £500 .. in
the sales .. Under £300 if you are clever and keep your
eyes open. "

That too... the capital invested - and no experience.
A local bloke here invested best part of $10K of his "golden handshake"
in FloHives and kit as a startup supplement to a pension. He populated
the new acreage with these hives and sat back on the verandah sipping
whisky on ice to then find himself at our door within months.
Last I heard he'd bought a tractor and slasher to cut a Shire roadside
cleanup contract.

Bill

 

[maddydog]

All very well pargyle but he's got to get his one colony through winter or he's back to square one buying another nuc

Hopefully the op sticks around and let's us know his progress.

 

[enrico]

Yeah well! The flow hive was invented by an Australian and Manuka honey by the New Zealanders.... Need I say more?

 

[butchtaylor909]

I'd be the first to say split one of the three later in the year .. and perhaps take a couple of nucs through the next winter

I know it depends on drone population in your own area...... But what tends to be the latest people consider practical to do a split to over winter a nuc?

 

[eltalia]

Yeah well! The flow hive was invented by an Australian and Manuka honey by the New Zealanders.... Need I say more?

As you would know 0r should know it is n0t possible to
'control' nor allow for the whims of individuals in managing
their apiary - the very best one can hope for is cover (design)
the basics and go from there.
There is little doubt (now) the Andersons provided a designed
product in good faith, allbeit in naiveity - and now today the
Company's response to the tiger grabbed (tail) is to swamp
the marketing in creating a closed shop.
With 55,000 units sold globally and not a single Plaint raised
under "fit for purpose" contractural legals I am pretty sure of
whom has the best end of the deal - those now marketing
literal thousands of litres of bottled honey, around the world.

I myself do n0t agree with the Company's principles buuuut
as a personal recognition of finesse...?... I take my hat off to
them both in achieving what no other beekeeper has achieved
in living memory - developing *and* producing a piece of kit
so revolutionry innovative as to change the face of beekeeping
for some forever.
No amount of whining/sniping/slander can take that away, hey?

Bill

 

[eltalia]

I know it depends on drone population in your own area...... But what tends to be the latest people consider practical to do a split to over winter a nuc?

Whilst I am well aware some believe building nuclei prior
to a known dearth is 'clever' achivement, the reality is
bees are being setup to fail, 0r not.
Not beekeeping in my view but sure is endemic in feeding
other arms of the industry.... usually n0t beekeepers.

Bill

 

[pargyle]

All very well pargyle but he's got to get his one colony through winter or he's back to square one buying another nuc

Hopefully the op sticks around and let's us know his progress.

I hope so too .. all the advice he's been given is good in this thread. Beekeeping is a lot about making considered decisions and taking into account all the factors you have at your disposal. The decisions we make are very personal ones - none of the suggestions put forward for the OP are bad ones .. just what 'we' would do in his situation.

What the OP has to do is think about the options he has been given, consider them and (in business you would) construct a SWOT chart .. Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats ... and then make his own decision about what he wants to do.

All we can do is wish him success as there are no guarantees in keeping bees ... even when you've been doing it a few years.

 

[bobba]

Well; I have had a slight change in plan.

Since I have had my nuc they have been trying to build a supersedure cell, I have been knocking it down every week. They have mostly been small, what some call play cups. But this week they built a much bigger one filed with jelly.

The guy I got the bees from has advised that I let them supersede the queen and take my chances with an open mated decedent from my current queen. I am a little apprehensive about tacking my chances, but the comments of some of you on this thread have given me more confidence.

I am running 11 frames and a dummy, and they have drawn all the frames now, so probably urgently need more space.

I am still waiting on a delivery of brood frames and foundation. So unfortunately, another brood box will probably not be possible until next weekend. The guy I got my bees from advised that I add a super. I discussed all the options and advise I have been offered with the High Queen (my wife), and she loves the idea of getting a little bit of honey this year. Obviously keeping her on board with my new hobby is an important consideration. So, super and QE went on today.

I have a feeder on the hive, it is a 2.4L feeder and had about ½ cm left in it. I know they say not to feed once a super is added, but I figured they can finish of that last little bit why they draw comb. So, I left it on the hive. Is that ok, or should I remove it tomorrow morning?

I am hoping I can build some boxes before next weekend. So hopefully I will have brood and nuc boxes available soon. This will give me more options. If the bees build another queen cell, which I think they probably will, then I suppose I will also have the option to use that when making the split.
When I say 2-1, I mean 2 sugar.

I hope so too .. all the advice he's been given is good in this thread. Beekeeping is a lot about making considered decisions and taking into account all the factors you have at your disposal. The decisions we make are very personal ones - none of the suggestions put forward for the OP are bad ones .. just what 'we' would do in his situation.
What the OP has to do is think about the options he has been given, consider them and (in business you would) construct a SWOT chart .. Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats ... and then make his own decision about what he wants to do.

All we can do is wish him success as there are no guarantees in keeping bees ... even when you've been doing it a few years.

Thankyou for the kind words, I will keep you guys informed of how it goes, for better or worse. Not so sure about making SWOT charts lol, I think I would currently be making about 3 a day if I went down that route. I am not so fond of using such business approaches in bee keeping. I have a different outlook; I see bee keeping more like an RTS game. You have a map, with resources to gather etc. The same principles of forward planning and strategy apply, but the crucial element is rapidly responding to unexpected events. Obviously, there is some overlap between the 2 schools of thought.

Its good to know another beekeeper close by, I am in Southampton.
Thanks as usual for everyone’s contributions, I would reply to more of you personally but I think I have already rambled enough for one post.

 

[pargyle]

If they were cramped in the Nuc then they were probably not supercedure cells but swarm cells. Just because there is only one does not automatically mean they are superceding.

If they are play cups you can leave them be .. knocking down queen cells is a waste of time ..they will build more - lots more - and it's not too late for them to swarm.

You say they have 'drawn' eleven frames ..it's not 'drawn' frames that dictates more space .. it's the amount of brood in them that's the key. You should put a super on when you have at least 7 or 8 frames of BROOD. If you want honey in your super then take the feeder off immediately or they will store the syrup .. unless you like sugar syrup on your toast.

There are hundreds of beekeepers in Southern Hampshire .. 140 in Fareham & District alone .. the you have Meon Valley, New Forest. Southampton & District, Romsey - you would do well to find the nearerst to you and join.

Keep us in touch with how it pans out.

 

[eltalia]

" I see bee keeping more like an RTS game. You have a map, with resources to gather etc. "

...nope.
Unique.

"The same principles of forward planning and strategy "

IF you get past the missus running the schedule of outcomes, your projected
reliance on "I reckon" around lollywater(syrup), the bees might just be
able to get through this Establishment phase.

Bill

 

[coffindodger]

The World War II leader and U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower apparently made a paradoxical statement about preparation. Here are two versions: 1) Plans are useless, but planning is indispensable. 2) Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

 

[SDM]

Precisely the thrust of the 'Plan' laid out in post #8.
Yet concensus reads as that advice being "out of step" as some honestly
believe two - or more - vibrant ready to winter colonys can be raised in 2019
regardless of forage and VD influences! From a startup..!..?
For a climate owning significant loss of forage days *and* miserably
long damp weeks - at any time - such ambition really does read as...
"weird".

/scratches haid/

Bill

I think you'll find that your experience is irrelevant here , my overwintered nucs all need brood boxes in april. The best will give a harvest and nuc before June and 2 more nucs and and a harvest by the end of July.
Pollen availability is 365, regular flying days april to the end of November with probably a week of flying days in each month December to March. The last heavy flow can run well into November meaning nucs made in August can often need hives before winter.
I'd get used to weird if I were you, your not in Kansas anymore Dorothy.

 

[SDM]

Ah... but the OP aspires to three hives so two more as well as the one he has... So, three brood boxes (he'll need at least one spare set for manipulations), three floors, three roofs, six supers, three queen excluders, three stands, 30 more brood frames, 60 shallow frames, foundation.

That's a lot of kit that will be signifcantly cheaper in the winter sales or at the early spring shows. At current prices .. even shopping around .. better part of £500 .. in the sales .. Under £300 if you are clever and keep your eyes open. £200 spare will get you thee good queens with a bit left over to put towards an extractor.

Looking to split this side of winter is just not good economics .. next year .. if he wanted to up the anti to four or fve hives (he'd get a honey crop and hopefully sell a bit) then I'd be the first to say split one of the three later in the year .. and perhaps take a couple of nucs through the next winter with a view to selling one in spring and keeping the other. Another £150 to add to the honey sales and it's starting to pay for itself as a hobby.

Unless the OP has money to burn .. makes much more sense financially. I live in Hampshire .. parts are very good but it varies. Where I live in the Costa del Fareham I don't get massive flows but the season starts early as the climate is mild and then it's generally a steady flow right the way through to the Ivy in October... but this year's wet June .. little beggars cleared just about everything they had stored in spring.

All very true but if he opts for splitting a nuc at full cost now I'd call it money well spent on insurance of not losing his one colony over winter and needing to buy replacement bees. He pays a tenner over the odds for a nuc now and the rest in the sales. If both survive the winter he could easily have 3 productive colonies next summer( not possible if he winters a single colony this year) , more than covering the cost of his £10 overspend.

 

[bobba]

The World War II leader and U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower apparently made a paradoxical statement about preparation. Here are two versions: 1) Plans are useless, but planning is indispensable. 2) Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.

haha.

I took the feeder off the next morning, but the bees had already sucked it dry.

I have made some poor-boys brood and super boxes from ply. I am working out how I will make some floors and roofs now. I have frames and foundation on order.

But now I will hopefully need a honey extractor. And I still need some way to power a OA vape (I was planning on using a friends jump starter, but it did not have enough stank )

From what little I read before getting the bees I thought June was late in the year and from what I understood at that point, I did not expect to be able to split them or get any honey this year. So I was completely unprepared in terms of both knowledge and equipment.

But I am learning fast (partly thanks to you guys) and rapidly getting my equipment in order (as funds allow).

However things go this year, split or not. I expect I will get another nuc next spring. So fingers crossed I will start with at least 2 hives. As well as being prepared on the equipment front.

You have all collectively answered my original question and a few more, so thanks again.

I may just call my next post "helping bobba with random stuff"