When to split?

[Murox]

.............snip.........I am not bothered about any honey this year, but think getting some extra brood frames drawn out will be advantages.............snip.................my other gripe is all the books I have read talk about when there is a "flow on". But none tell you how to tell if there is currently a "flow on" or not.

Only you know what melliferous plants are available to your colonies within their forage radius; each plant type will give pollen/nectar at particular times. You need to look at what is around you and observe your bees.
As you're not worried about honey this year I suggest you concentrate your efforts in getting all the foundation you can drawn, ready for next year.
Bees will draw foundation into comb for only two reasons: for brood rearing, or to store food; nectar, honey, or pollen and foundation cannot be drawn without a flow – real or artificial.
Fill your box with frames of foundation placed over a queen excluder during a flow. You can feed 1:1 sugar syrup continuously to get bees to build 20-30 frames of foundation into drawn comb. When a real nectar flow occurs, the bees might well stop taking syrup, but they will still use it at night or on rainy and no-fly days. After 6-7 frames of foundation have been well drawn move the undrawn frames into the centre and the drawn frames to the side. Then add a second box of foundation. When the combs have been drawn, filled and ripened they can be extracted and stored. if sugar syrup is stored in these newly drawn combs it can be kept for feed in the winter - or put in the freezer and used in nucs etc next spring.

 

[pargyle]

Yes .. agree with Murox above .. beekeeping is a lot about planning ahead.. draw comb when you can for when you need it ...buy all your equipment when you don't need it and it's cheaper in the sales. Plan now for winter and start planning for what you want next spring.

 

[Beefriendly]

draw comb when you can for when you need it .

And far more importantly (bees draw comb for fun in a decent nectar flow) protect it...spray with Bacillus thuringenesis solution (google it) or stick combs in freezer...beware you need large freezer and it's very very very brittle at -20.
Sulphur strips/candles etc etc.

 

[maddydog]

You may laugh.

Thank you

 

[bobba]

And far more importantly (bees draw comb for fun in a decent nectar flow) protect it...spray with Bacillus thuringenesis solution (google it) or stick combs in freezer...beware you need large freezer and it's very very very brittle at -20.
Sulphur strips/candles etc etc.

That Bacillus thuringenesis sounds useful, thanks.

And thanks, Murox.

Regarding drawing out comb, I read a research paper where they were attempting to determine if 1-1 or 2-1 syrup was best to use. The experiment was measuring to total amount of comb drawn per kg of sugar fed. They found a negligible difference. So, the conclusion of the paper was you may had well use 2-1 and its less effort for the bee keeper.

I save most the research papers I read so may be able to dig out a copy if you are interested.

So; I will do as you say with the exception of feeding 2-1. Then reconsider my options depending on availability of queen. But I am very fond of the idea of prepping and storing some comb

 

[Murox]

Which way around are you reading 2:1, is that two parts sugar and one part water? or two parts water and one part sugar ?

 

[eltalia]

@Bobba

Seems like a free-for-all (scrum) is where your topic is headed, so here goes..?

"Luckily storing frames is one topic that is actually quite well covered in the books I have read.
I have read a lot about different methods of splitting a hive too, but they never seem to
talk about when to do it. my other gripe is all the books I have read talk about when there
is a "flow on". But none tell you how to tell if there is currently a "flow on" or not. "


I addressed your "when to split" earlier, ask what you are n0t sure of.

Storing frames relies very much on what one can do with what one
has - cash/space/time/climate... and of course the contents of the frame.
Our method is to place them in a reasonably airtight space and feed dry
nitrogen in as a trickle feed. For a few frames it's a plastic bag and dry ice
pellets overnight to then place in the coldroom. A/C would serve as well.

Flows are a local thing - overstating the obvious? - buuuuut anywhere, as
soon as you get a whiff of curing honey from a hive no matter how light a
smell, a flow is on. Dusk is the best of the day to sniff around.
Prempting a flow requires the b'keep to know two things;
1. The local herbage types and their characteristics - an area of b'keepn I
myself sadly lack.
2. A solid awareness of the state of colonys in terms of numbers, it is only
strong colonys which will benefit noticeably from flows - too many today
believe "lots of bees" is simply bees in the hive, period.
Whether nuturing a startup or managing a 120K strong colony there
has to be 90% of all brood combs covered to 80% by bees before
*any* flow is going to impact for them.
This is exactly where the "throw the frames in and feed them lollywater"
crowd get it all so horribly wrong, for bees.

Hope this all helps...

Bill

 

[pargyle]

And far more importantly (bees draw comb for fun in a decent nectar flow) protect it...spray with Bacillus thuringenesis solution (google it) or stick combs in freezer...beware you need large freezer and it's very very very brittle at -20.
Sulphur strips/candles etc etc.

Yes ... Isn't that what I said at Post #14...?

"You would need to protect them from wax moth damage over winter .. lots of threads on wax moth on here".

 

[beebopper]

I have kept Buckies all my beekeeping life and have never had F2/3/4 aggression
I replace the queens when the bees get too black and production drops off

Amen to that.

 

[beebopper]

Yes .. agree with Murox above .. beekeeping is a lot about planning ahead.. draw comb when you can for when you need it ...buy all your equipment when you don't need it and it's cheaper in the sales. Plan now for winter and start planning for what you want next spring.

Absolutely - but when your starting out you don’t even have a clue about what you don’t know yet, so you don’t know what you need to buy in advance. So you can’t plan for a plan you don’t yet know. Reading helps but doing is King.

 

[eltalia]

Absolutely - but when your starting out you don’t even have a clue about what you don’t know yet, so you don’t know what you need to buy in advance. So you can’t plan for a plan you don’t yet know. Reading helps but doing is King.

Precisely the thrust of the 'Plan' laid out in post #8.
Yet concensus reads as that advice being "out of step" as some honestly
believe two - or more - vibrant ready to winter colonys can be raised in 2019
regardless of forage and VD influences! From a startup..!..?
For a climate owning significant loss of forage days *and* miserably
long damp weeks - at any time - such ambition really does read as...
"weird".

/scratches haid/

Bill

 

[beebopper]

Precisely the thrust of the 'Plan' laid out in post #8.
Yet concensus reads as that advice being "out of step" as some honestly
believe two - or more - vibrant ready to winter colonys can be raised in 2019
regardless of forage and VD influences! From a startup..!..?
For a climate owning significant loss of forage days *and* miserably
long damp weeks - at any time - such ambition really does read as...
"weird".

/scratches haid/

Bill[/QUOTE

 

[pargyle]

as...
"weird".

/scratches haid/

Bill[/QUOTE

Perhaps best not to quote him .. does my head in as he's the only member on my ignore list .. I thought Australia had English as their first language ? Finnie makes more sense these days ...

Edited to remove the quoted quote ! Possibly what I would call a Soddit not an Edit !!

 

[maddydog]

Bill, don't believe everything you see on Monty python. The op lives in Hampshire, probably about as good as it gets in the UK. They'll likely be foraging well into November. Simple matter to split and have two good colonies into winter. Likewise if he wants to go single colony/double brood ready to split next year.

 

[eltalia]

Bill, don't believe everything you see on Monty python. The op
lives in Hampshire, probably about as good as it gets in the UK.
[...]

Thanks mate, if I relied on MP satire I'd be losing way more of the audience
than currently wanders, dazed.
I have rellies in the UK, and that contact alone - along with visits - tells me
the messages I get saying I cannot post here because the weather is so shi7e
compared to what we enjoy has me smile as I *know* know such statements
are a crock of shi7e... and not likely to come from experienced b'keeps.

Back to bees?
As a rough guide it is around three generations before a nuclei can be rehomed
to a FD box, a further eight generations to grow a BC out to numbers sufficient
to warrant adding a super. Roughly around seven months... and that's here in a
good year. Halve it if you can do migratory - out of bounds for a backyarder.
"Hampshire"
I do not say to the guy/gal "do n0t do that" as for all I know there could be a
c'mrcl rotational crop grower next door. I simply lay out what works for the
question asked as it is asked.
Any more than that and yes, one ight as well take up astronomy.
/smikes/

Bill

 

[maddydog]

Wow Bill that's some timescale. What's the limiting factor on build up for you: nectar? Pollen? Water? Heat? Bit of all 4?

 

[Repwoc]

Wow Bill that's some timescale. What's the limiting factor on build up for you: nectar? Pollen? Water? Heat? Bit of all 4?

Indeed - the entire active season + a while more before adding a super.

 

[eltalia]

Wow Bill that's some timescale. What's the limiting factor on build up for you: nectar? Pollen? Water? Heat? Bit of all 4?

Ummmm... keep in mind I frame the timeline in the context of the
0P's question - it is n0t how we , us, our apiary, operates.
Buuut to answer yours - in a nutshell?
Whilst true we have loads of flying days and thousands/millions of
hectares in forage it is also true the forage windows are sporadic,
and the density hundreds of miles/kilometres apart - hence productive
beekeeping in Australia is wholly migratory.
That there is the way of it, in Ausralia...been like that since Adam was
a pup.

IF you happen to live in or close to a hotspot for forage, like several
vegatation types owning rolling flowering periods, then sure your apiary
will flourish as a standalone IF you are chasing honey product.
We aren't and do n0t, so our situation and bee 'habits' reflect what any
backyarder could expect - huge flows of short duration followed by long
periods of dearth and bees existing on stores. What I term, idling along.
Then for us, our apiary, we have The Wet Season, a time in duration and
stress levels (bees) arguably far dire for bees than any winter outside of
the likes of Canada.
Teling you what you already know or should know (?) it is those times
between known annual flows management kicks in as you have potentially
huge numbers, little forage, and 'heat' to get through - bee metabolic
rates not slowing, at all. Sure sorts the b'keeps from the bee0wners, I tellya.

Bill

 

[maddydog]

Thanks Bill, interesting to hear other perspectives.

 

[eltalia]

Thanks Bill, interesting to hear other perspectives.

Precisely why I travelled (a lot) back when.
Others do not share the curiousity (?) and so we (royal)
see what is seen/read on the mighty Internets where
there is no lounge waiting time nor dossing down under
the stars. Heh

Thankyou for your question.

Bill