When to inspect after introducing new queen

[Adamski20]

Hi All

I have searched the forum but haven't found an answer to my specific question, so hope I don't upset anyone by posting again if it has been asked previously.

I introduced a new queen to my hive last weekend (9th Jul) after dealing with laying workers, how long should I wait before carrying out an inspection? And when I do inspect should I do a full inspection or just a quick in-and-out to remove the queen cage, check she is still there and is laying?

Some background for context (including plenty of newbee mistakes no doubt).

• This is my first and only colony. I have done my own learning on beekeeping from books and websites as well as attending structured theory/practical training course prior to obtaining colony.
• I installed it in my hive on 9th May from a good nuc. Nuc was an April'22 split from an overwintered 2021 colony (all frames drawn, plenty stores, BIAS, white marked queen, loads of bees).
• First couple of inspections were good, they were building up stores, increasing levels of brood, drawing out foundation in brood box and honey super and starting to store honey in the super. I did have to remove quite a lot of queen cups (7 on first inspection, 10 on second). I was feeding throughout this to make sure they had energy to draw out the foundation
• On 27th May, third inspection, my queen had disappeared. This was 8 days after the prior inspection (weather wasn't suitable to do it sooner). Also no sign of eggs. There was however a sealed queen cell. Searched all frames 3 times for sign of the queen or eggs, but no luck. I must have missed a queen cup on a previous inspection and they must have swarmed. Honestly at this point I panicked and didn't know what to do so just shut everything up to contemplate things and seek advise.
• Acting upon the advice I waited 10 days and went back in to see if there was a new queen present. There was, in fact there were two. I marked them both. There were also several other sealed queen cells, which I removed (the queens emerged from these after I had removed them and were scurrying about in the tub I put off-cuts of brace comb in). There were no eggs, and very little brood (to be expected after a swarm I suppose), but they were still building up stores and drawing comb.
• The following week (13th Jun) I went back in. There was now only one queen (marked), but still no eggs and no brood. Levels of stores about the same, a little more foundation drawn. Removed 4 queen cups. Added a super under the QE to go brood and a half (I read in a couple of places that you should add extra brood space once 7 or 8 of the frames are drawn so think if I'd done this sooner it might have helped to avoid the swarm)
• Next week (19th Jun), queen still there, still no eggs or brood. Bees drawing the foundation in the brood box and adding stores to it.
• 27th Jun. no sign of queen, but there were eggs on one of the frames. There were multiple eggs in some of the cells, so this combined with no queen made me think there could be laying workers, wasn't certain at this point though, thought I could have just missed the queen and the multiple eggs was just the new queen "clearing her throat"
• 3rd Jul, still no queen, more eggs (sometimes multiples per cell) and larvae (sometimes multiple per cell). At this point I'm pretty much convinced my queen is gone (possibly grabbed by a swallow on her mating flight after I painted a nice yellow target on her back!!!). Took some advice on how to deal with laying workers (the advice was to follow this process Dealing with Laying Workers and to introduce the new queen as soon as complete) and ordered a new queen (mated).
• 9th Jul, did a quick inspection just to make sure colony was queenless, it was (all capped brood was drone brood, still multiple eggs/larvae per cell, no sign of queen). Transported hive 100m away (as far as I could whilst remaining on my property) and carried out the above process to get rid of the laying workers. Took hive back to original location where there were plenty of bees waiting for its return. They promptly started making their way into the hive when I place it back on its floor. I placed the queen (in her cage with attendants) on top of the main brood chamber and waited a short while to see how the other bees responded to her. They were attracted to her and encircled the cage, but it didn't look like they were trying to sting her through the cage. So I removed the little plastic tab to expose the fondant plug and suspended the cage between two frames in the centre of the main brood chamber. Closed up the hive and crossed my fingers.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would look asap. I can’t understand your link where it says that shaking out gets rid of laying workers. It doesn’t. Laying workers fly just as well as any other bee.
You might be lucky. Introducing a queen this way has been described to work but mostly the queen gets killed, especially as you let her out almost immediately.
Tell us what you find and fingers crossed.

 

[Adamski20]

I would look asap. I can’t understand your link where it says that shaking out gets rid of laying workers. It doesn’t. Laying workers fly just as well as any other bee.
You might be lucky. Introducing a queen this way has been described to work but mostly the queen gets killed, especially as you let her out almost immediately.
Tell us what you find and fingers crossed.

It’s not the only place that has given this advice (there is plenty of contradictory advice too). After I introduced the new queen there was still a cluster of a couple hundred bees where I had shaken them on the grass. Some were buzzing about, most were just clustered on the grass. There is still a small cluster of about 20 there today. So definitely a bunch of bees that haven’t returned to the hive for some reason or other.

Will check the hive tomorrow/Saturday and see what’s going on. Not sure what I’ll do if they’ve killed the new queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would look asap. I can’t understand your link where it says that shaking out gets rid of laying workers. It doesn’t. Laying workers fly just as well as any other bee.

not the first time we've seen duff 'advice' from that site.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

there was still a cluster of a couple hundred bees where I had shaken them on the grass. Some were buzzing about, most were just clustered on the grass. There is still a small cluster of about 20 there today. So definitely a bunch of bees that haven’t returned to the hive for some reason or other.

Possibly because there was a queen there

 

[Adamski20]

Possibly because there was a queen there

I did have a look to see if that was the case but I couldn’t see her in there

 

[Adamski20]

Possibly because there was a queen there

Why would there be a queen in the hive if there is laying workers? Wouldn’t the laying workers have killed that queen?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why would there be a queen in the hive if there is laying workers? Wouldn’t the laying workers have killed that queen?

I'm not convinced you had laying workers

 

[Adamski20]

I'm not convinced you had laying workers

So you think it was a drone laying queen then?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Will check the hive tomorrow/Saturday and see what’s going on. Not sure what I’ll do if they’ve killed the new queen.

Fingers crossed Let us know.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have searched the forum but haven't found an answer to my specific question, so hope I don't upset anyone by posting again if it has been asked previously.

Adam The search function is a bit weird here. It throws up too much to trawl through. The best thing for beginners to do is ask here. Nobody will censure you for asking a question that has been asked many times before.

 

[Adamski20]

Adam The search function is a bit weird here. It throws up too much to trawl through. The best thing for beginners to do is ask here. Nobody will censure you for asking a question that has been asked many times before.

Thanks, I appreciate you saying this. I know some other forums can be a bit funny about the same question being asked.

 

[RichardK]

I also went down the route of shaking out a drone laying worker colony some distance away earlier this year. I added a frame of brood rather than a mated queen (as I could...I'm aware you have just the 1 colony though). In short it worked and the colony has now built up extremely well. Here's a link to the process I followed just for comparisons sake: Drone Laying worker resolution I don't regard your method as 'duff advice'... just someone's advice.

At this point Dani has hit the proverbial nail on the head - open it up and take a look! And let us know what you find!

 

[wessex4291]

I was going to ask the same question, so probably best to keep it in this thread. How long should you normally leave between opening the tab on the queen cage and the next inspection/manipulation? I am slightly concerned that they will run out of space in the nuc if we leave it a full week. They've filled two frames with nectar in the last week and only have 2 1/2 empty frames when we opened the tab.

Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't regard your method as 'duff advice'... just someone's advice.

someone's incorrect/ bad advice based on an incorrect assumption extrapolated from a beekeeping myth.

 

[Adamski20]

I also went down the route of shaking out a drone laying worker colony some distance away earlier this year. I added a frame of brood rather than a mated queen (as I could...I'm aware you have just the 1 colony though). In short it worked and the colony has now built up extremely well.

Yeah, from what I’ve read that does seem like the better approach as they raise their new queen from an egg and the open brood pheromone helps to suppress the laying workers (or something like that). Also cheaper as you don’t need to fork out for a new queen.

If anything this whole experience has lead me to the conclusion that I need at least two colonies.

 

[Adamski20]

someone's incorrect/ bad advice based on an incorrect assumption extrapolated from a beekeeping myth.

Do you have any constructive advice to add to this thread? You seem to be an experienced beekeeper, so no doubt have a lot of useful knowledge. But struggling to see you adding anything helpful in this thread, just poo-pooing what other people say.

 

[madasafish]

What has worked for me with laying workers:
Add a frame of open brood.
At the same time or as soon as possible add a LAYING Queen in a cage with attendants with all tabs in place (so she cannot be released or killed ) beside the frame of open brood.
Leave 4 days. Check Q is not being attacked and if not, then remove tabs so Q can be released by bees.

 

[RichardK]

I was going to ask the same question, so probably best to keep it in this thread. How long should you normally leave between opening the tab on the queen cage and the next inspection/manipulation? I am slightly concerned that they will run out of space in the nuc if we leave it a full week. They've filled two frames with nectar in the last week and only have 2 1/2 empty frames when we opened the tab.

Thanks

I leave the cage in the hive for 24 to 48 hours with the tab left intact (only 48 if I'm introducing for example a Buckfast or Italian into a hive of black bees). Then I break the tab off and leave for 4 days. Generally the queen is released within 1 to 3 days. If they haven't eaten through the fondant after 4 days (too hard), then I give them a helping hand - soften with water, scrape some off, ..... I've never had to manually release them.

Once you know they're out, leave them alone for 7 to 10 days. Looking earlier won't help (even though it's very, very tempting...).If your bees are filling everything with nectar, you can always swap a nectar filled frame with a new sheet of foundation or drawn comb.

 

[ericbeaumont]

definitely a bunch of bees that haven’t returned to the hive for some reason or other.

The idea that laying workers can't fly never made sense to me either: after all, bees have wings.

I interpreted the shake-out by concluding that if laying workers are formed from house bees then they will not know where to return once shaken out.

Best plan, Adam, is to aim to run two colonies next season, because if this situation recurs, the easiest way to prevent laying workers is to add regular frames of open brood to a suspect colony: the brood pheromone deters LWs.

https://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm