When is it too late to catch a ‘viable’ swarm?

[Do224]

I’m under the impression that most swarms occur in May and June normally (perhaps June and July this year?).

Does there come a point in the summer/autumn when it’s too late to catch a swarm to start a new colony because they would never be able to build up in time for winter? I’m assuming that most swarms later in the year are casts too so possibly smaller?

I know you could always combine smaller, late season swarms with other colonies but as a new beekeeper I wouldn’t have that option.

 

[user 819]

Prime swarms can occur into September, these will over winter in nuc or dummied down BB.

A tale about one of my colonies last year.
One of my colonies with a new queen from early May last year swarmed about 7th August (I had clipped her in early July which I don't normally do until the next spring, must have been a bit of ESP at play), located her and the swarm under the UFE. They over wintered in 6F nuc and are going great guns in a long hive arrangement.
The parent hive by 10th Sept had a new Q in place and she had laid up 5F with E/U/S, these had a time of it as well with a wasp onslaught for several weeks well in to late October and then the roof blew off in a storm and were open to the rain all night. The insulated deep poly carb CB likely saved them, despite the ordeals they went through they came through the other side and only this week I have transferred her to a nuc as they have decided to produce a couple of QC's. I have been running them with no QX with 5 boxes so it may just be a pheromone thing as the QC's were higher up in a box.

 

[user 819]

The mother Q of this daughter and grand daughter I reluctantly collected in April 2019, reluctant as I already had enough colonies for my needs.
That Q is still going just (2 patches of small brood) and is in a nuc and is currently being replaced as the bees have produced one QC which is now 7 days old. The strain appears to be a little swarmy which I can deal with as one they only so far are producing 2 - 6 QC's, two they are quiet/calm bees that don't boil out of the top or run on the comb with little in the way of being defensive. Three a reasonable crop for a static colony in a village location.
Currently have 3 QR colonies from the single swarm collected and one with anew emerged VQ and one with a pair of 8 day QC's.

My initial thoughts are they look like Italian as very yellow but now becoming a bit darker with hybridising, so far though the open mating's in the village location aren't yet showing up any changes noticeable yet in character.

 

[Do224]

Prime swarms can occur into September, these will over winter in nuc or dummied down BB.

A tale about one of my colonies last year.
One of my colonies with a new queen from early May last year swarmed about 7th August (I had clipped her in early July which I don't normally do until the next spring, must have been a bit of ESP at play), located her and the swarm under the UFE. They over wintered in 6F nuc and are going great guns in a long hive arrangement.
The parent hive by 10th Sept had a new Q in place and she had laid up 5F with E/U/S, these had a time of it as well with a wasp onslaught for several weeks well in to late October and then the roof blew off in a storm and were open to the rain all night. The insulated deep poly carb CB likely saved them, despite the ordeals they went through they came through the other side and only this week I have transferred her to a nuc as they have decided to produce a couple of QC's. I have been running them with no QX with 5 boxes so it may just be a pheromone thing as the QC's were higher up in a box.

That’s really interesting, thanks. I didn’t realise you could still catch swarms into September.

I’m not sure what ESP, E/U/S or UFE stand for? Sorry if it’s obvious.

When you say you’ve been running them with no QX and five boxes do you mean the queen has a brood box and four supers to lay in? I’d be interested to hear the reasoning behind a setup like that?

 

[user 819]

ESP = Extra Sensory Perception.
E/U/S = Eggs/Unsealed/ Sealed, the three brood stages.
UFE= Under Floor Entrance.

As can be seen I'm an acronym user.

 

[BugsInABox]

E/U/S = Eggs/Unsealed/ Sealed, the three brood stages.

Why not use BIAS?

 

[user 819]

Simply because I was taught from the start to use E/U/S and it has stuck with me as they are simply the three brood stages , when I make my notes if for what ever reason I see no eggs, I will simply write U/S or S if only sealed is seen.
BIAS is a term I have never used in beekeeping and simply don't use it, if mentoring someone I always point out what we are looking at /for and never use the term.

 

[Murox]

ESP = Extra Sensory Perception.
E/U/S = Eggs/Unsealed/ Sealed, the three brood stages.
UFE= Under Floor Entrance.

As can be seen I'm an acronym user.

I think thats a very useful term, but have never heard it used before in this form.

 

[Earthboy]

Two years ago, I had to do a cutout in late December at the insistence of a mobile home dealership nearby. I was able to save this late cutout without any honey store on their part by pouring regular sugar on top of a newspaper, known as Mountain Camp method. The sugar will become hardened like fondant but due to the moisture generated by the motabulism of the bees under the newspaper, the granules along the edge will become softened for the bees to consume. I have also wrapped the colony heavily to keep them warm, as well. The result surprised me, as well.

 

[North End Bees]

E/U/S = Eggs/Unsealed/ Sealed, the three brood stages.
As can be seen I'm an acronym user.

Simply because I was taught from the start to use E/U/S and it has stuck with me as they are simply the three brood stages

I use BIAS in my notes if all 3 present (or not).

For only 1 or 2 of the stages present, I use E, L or SB as approp.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I have tick boxes labeled E, L, and S on my hive notes.

 

[Boston Bees]

Why not use BIAS?

Because then no-one would ask "why not use BIAS?"

 

[gmonag]

I use :
Eggs
Larvae
Capped
or BIAS!

 

[Newbeeneil]

Why not use BIAS?

If you just use the term BIAS what do you put when there I see only eggs and larvae? By using individual indicators it give more information.

 

[user 819]

If you just use the term BIAS what do you put when there I see only eggs and larvae? By using individual indicators it give more information.

Totally agree us Neils/Neals are always right (except when we aren't) .

E/L/S or E/U/S is far more informative then BIAS, afaic BIAS is a prejudice for or against something.

 

[BugsInABox]

Totally agree us Neils/Neals are always right (except when we aren't) .

E/L/S or E/U/S is far more informative then BIAS, afaic BIAS is a prejudice for or against something.

Another Neil here!
BIAB

 

[user 819]

Another Neil here!
BIAB

We are like buses.

 

[Newbeeneil]

We are like buses.

I'm not sure about a bus but I know I was a taxi when my kids were teenagers living in a village!

 

[elainemary]

Simply because I was taught from the start to use E/U/S and it has stuck with me as they are simply the three brood stages , when I make my notes if for what ever reason I see no eggs, I will simply write U/S or S if only sealed is seen.
BIAS is a term I have never used in beekeeping and simply don't use it, if mentoring someone I always point out what we are looking at /for and never use the term.

Agree with you, records on ‘eus’ is far more insightful than ‘bias’. ‘es’ could mean queen laying after a short brood break or new introduced queen now laying etc. Useful when looking back at records

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I've had a September virgin swarm - none too big. She mated and got through winter OK.
If you have such a thing and a queen starts to lay, adding a frame of brood from another colony makes a huge difference to the new colonies viability.