Whats the difference between a king cup and a queen cup?

[RosieMc]

Does anyone know what a king cup looks like? A photo would be terrific. I've search the web and books but cannot find a description.

 

[RosieMc]

Does anyone know what a king cup looks like? A photo would be terrific. I've search the web and books but cannot find a description.

Sorry, I forgot to say that I think I know what a king cup is - it's where a queenless coloncy tries to make a queen out of a drone cell in desparation.

I found some partially made queen cups on a frame in a (presumably) queenless colony with one beaut of a sealed ? queen cup. I don't want to destroy it just in case. This is a follow on from a previous post about laying workers/drone laying queens.

I am interested in what a king cell looks like.

 

[Poly Hive]

No such thing as a "Kingcup"

PH

 

[mexbigshow]

isn't a kingcup just the old term for a queencup when people believed the hive was run by a king?
chris

 

[justme]

King cups are Celandines down here, flowers that is.

 

[Gardenbees]

Sorry, I forgot to say that I think I know what a king cup is - it's where a queenless coloncy tries to make a queen out of a drone cell in desparation.

I found some partially made queen cups on a frame in a (presumably) queenless colony with one beaut of a sealed ? queen cup. I don't want to destroy it just in case. This is a follow on from a previous post about laying workers/drone laying queens.

I am interested in what a king cell looks like.

Kingcup is a common name for Marsh marigold, Caltha palustris!
I have never heard the term in connection with beekeeping, nor the term "king cell".

A Queen cell made from a drone cell looks a lot like any other emergency cell, I should imagine: rather small, rather perpendicular to the surface of the frame compared with supercedure or swarm cells, on the surface rather than hanging down underneath the frame etc. If it really was from a drone cell then I guess the only difference would be that the base of the cell, and the surrounding cells, would obviously be larger drone cells.

A Google image search on "emergency queen cells" should help, esp. if you keep the words in quotes. In general I'd say that such cells have a rather messy, hasty look, and there are usually quite a lot of them at a similar stage, and quite small.

Are you sure that your queen cells are in a queenless colony? Lots of colonies are making swarm cells at the moment despite peoples' earlier attempts to artificially swarm them. And if there really is only the one, nice-looking cell that's actually finished, then it might be a supercedure cell. In both cases there will be a queen present (apologies if you already know all this!). I have never seen an emergency queen cell made out of a drone cell, but they would presumably do this only if they had been queenless for a long time and/or had laying workers.

I would firstly check whether there's any chance they could be swarm cells, and take swarm management action accordingly. If it seems more like emergency or supercedure cells, leave the good one and wait and see.

 

[victor meldrew]

I thought a king cup was a variety of Rananculus

VM

 

[RosieMc]

There is something very strange going on with this hive. The story is longer than this, but maybe my comment at the end is a possibility

Swarmed in May - original queen did a bunk/killed off leaving no evidence of any queen cells.

No eggs/lavea/brood for weeks

4 Test frames given over the following weeks which had brood of varying stages including upcapped & capped queen cells. Queen cells all torn down. No evidence of any fertilised queen resulting. Last test frame given on 18 June

Week following - away on holiday

27 June - inspected to find random drone cells of very poor structure splattered/pepper pot design over 4 frames. I would guess about 200 in total. No evidence seen of capped worker cells. Decapitated as many drone cells as I could see. Domestic circumstances dictated I could not inspect again for a few days

4 July - Shook frames from a distance to remove any possible laying worker. Forgot to put QE on base of brood box

8 July (today) shook frames again, this time with QE on base of brood box to remove any drone laying queen. Only then did I notice the queen cells - absolutely NO worker cells of any stage and no further drone cells/eggs/larvea

5 mins later the heavens opened and I had to pack up quick. It's still raining!

I used the term 'king cup' as I have seen this word quoted on this forum.

What I do not understand is, of the 4 -5 cups that were drawn, they were isolated, with no other brood next to them of any description. They are all on the same side of the same foundation. True, some of them looked quite small. I did open one and there was a larva in it.

Perhaps I do have a queen. Perhaps the bees have decided amongst themselves that they will only nurse fertilised eggs and not unfertilised ones and that this is the result

 

[susbees]

No such thing as a "Kingcup"

PH

For the first time PH, I disagree with you. A king cup is where workers in desperation draw down on larvae from an unmated DLQ and seal the cells. They remain smooth on the outside rather than peanut dimpled, almost as if they then realise they are wrong!

Just had some in a cast which ended up with a DLQ who never laid worker eggs. I expect the term was mine....is there a proper one?

Sadly I didn't photograph them, but they are smooth sealed elongated cells.

 

[viridens]

I have never had a colony reach a state where it needs to do this.

I assume that what emerges from the cell is an extra and large and healthy drone?

 

[susbees]

I have never had a colony reach a state where it needs to do this.

I assume that what emerges from the cell is an extra and large and healthy drone?

Don't know. I left my cast just long enough to decide that she wouldn't come good and lay worker eggs, shook them out..she came back, sieved them and she vanished, so small I couldn't find her (and nor could another beekeeper so not just me!). United them the other week.

 

[RosieMc]

Thank you Susbee - I've just checked again properly

There are two of these strange things and no eggs, lavea, or brood of any description on any other frames.

They look live a curved finger sticking out from the frame, perhaps because the foundation they are on is not built up too deeply

I opened one of the smaller ? Q or ? K cup and there was 'something' in there. I find it very strange that there are no capped drone cells after I decapitated a vast quantity of them the other day

There are also 3 play cups which have fat lavea in them lying down at the base of the cup

I've put a test frame in and hopefully the bees will realsie their mistake. I tried to take a photo but the result was too blurred to attach

 

[The Apprentices]

I thought a king cup was a variety of Rananculus

VM

It is pronounced Ranunculaceae actually

There are many local names of the Marsh Marigold which is the real King Cup, not the Celandine which prefers a drier meadow setting.

There is another buttercup species called the Globe Flower which my father has around the farm and calls them King Cups, which are called locally by the elders, "The Double Dumpling".

I think there is a book you can get that has all the local names of flower lore in it.

I love the wild ones.

 

[Crg]

For the first time PH, I disagree with you. A king cup is where workers in desperation draw down on larvae from an unmated DLQ and seal the cells. They remain smooth on the outside rather than peanut dimpled, almost as if they then realise they are wrong!

That would be more a king cell rather than a king cup wouldn't it?

Wouldn't count of them being smooth on the outside either. I've seen ones that look exactly like queen cells from the outside.

 

[Poly Hive]

The difference is that a queen cup exists in the literature, and the "king" does not.

I have checked the WWW and D. Cushmans site and he does tend to have the obscure, but no, nothing.

PH