what would you do

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Trouble is, you state that No1 may have a virgin queen in - you cannot unite with no4 as what will probably happen (knowing your luck) is the VQ will kill the laying q and you will be back to square one. Same with no's 2 and 3.
Soooo. My thoughts at the moment (getting rid of some some figures may make the equation a bit simpler) we need to address each colony individually

No1 Hive

Any brood at all in this hive?
if so, at what stage? (eggs,larvae capped)

No 2 hive

Viable laying Queen.

How many frames of brood (specify eggs, larvae, capped)
are there many foraging bees at the entrance?
How much capped brood
when did queen start laying
when do you expect this to start emerging

No4 Hive

Viable, laying queen, if not much stores then loads too much room sounds to me as if they are on drawn foundation?
Question - how many frames are drawn
are they filled with stores or not
are there many foraging bees at the entrance?
How much feed did you give them
Do you have access to another nucleus hive.
How much capped brood
when did queen start laying
when do you expect this to start emerging

No3 Hive

Any brood at all in this hive?

I think handling this in small chunks is the best thing, for now we can put 2 and 4 to one side temporarily until we get the specific facts on the other 'problem' boxes. It would be good to know whether any hive can spare a frame with some eggs on so that we can put it into Hive No1 which looks like a decent hive, so we can establish whether Q- or not.

Simple, direct answers if posible IG as I am but a simple direct person

I'm trying to use a bit of paper and a pencil, but all I do is confuse myself more!! so lets have a good crack at this

 

[irishguy]

Trouble is, you state that No1 may have a virgin queen in - you cannot unite with no4 as what will probably happen (knowing your luck) is the VQ will kill the laying q and you will be back to square one. Same with no's 2 and 3.
Soooo. My thoughts at the moment (getting rid of some some figures may make the equation a bit simpler) we need to address each colony individually

No1 Hive

Any brood at all in this hive? No brood,eggs or larvae. Hive very agitated and with QC with brown tip. Also looks like hatched QC recently
if so, at what stage? (eggs,larvae capped)

No 2 hive

Viable laying Queen. Yes

How many frames of brood (specify eggs, larvae, capped). Small amount of capped brood and larve but lots of eggs. Queen has loads of places to lay
are there many foraging bees at the entrance? Yes, loads
How much capped brood. not much, small amount on 1 side of frame
when did queen start laying
when do you expect this to start emerging. Very soon if not already

No4 Hive

Viable, laying queen, if not much stores then loads too much room sounds to me as if they are on drawn foundation? Yes
Question - how many frames are drawn
are they filled with stores or not. 1 or 2 drawn frames with stores, few frames untouched
are there many foraging bees at the entrance? No not that much. Its the quietest of the hives
How much feed did you give them. 1 round plastic feeder a few weeks ago
Do you have access to another nucleus hive. No but could make one up today if its really important
How much capped brood. This has maybe 1 or 1 and half side of frame of cApped brood and mixture of larvae and eggs on the rest of these same frames.
when did queen start laying. This one started laying maybe 14-21 days ago. This one mated very quickly
when do you expect this to start emerging. if you mean new bees emerging, i think theyve already done this because if i remember correctly, there was defo some new nurse bees.

No3 Hive

Any brood at all in this hive? No brood,eggs or larvae in this hive. Bees on a few frames and with plenty drawn out frames, stores etc..

I think handling this in small chunks is the best thing, for now we can put 2 and 4 to one side temporarily until we get the specific facts on the other 'problem' boxes. It would be good to know whether any hive can spare a frame with some eggs on so that we can put it into Hive No1 which looks like a decent hive, so we can establish whether Q- or not.

Simple, direct answers if posible IG as I am but a simple direct person

I'm trying to use a bit of paper and a pencil, but all I do is confuse myself more!! so lets have a good crack at this

If its ok and this doesn't disturb the bees, i will go out and do another inspection and take notes this time to know exactly where we are but im 99% sure im right in what ive replied with above.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If its ok and this doesn't disturb the bees, i will go out and do another inspection and take notes this time to know exactly where we are but im 99% sure im right in what ive replied with above.

Leave #1 and 3 well alone for now. Let me have a think - you could keep yourself occupied by building a few nucs if it's that easy for you - one 5 frame and 1 six if you have the stuff to hand

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How many frames of brood (in any stage) on two?

I think given a bit of fair play 2 and 4 will be OK, there's still time

 

[Tonyatcwfarm]

I'm on the edge of my seat
Well done Philip and JBM

 

[irishguy]

Leave #1 and 3 well alone for now. Let me have a think - you could keep yourself occupied by building a few nucs if it's that easy for you - one 5 frame and 1 six if you have the stuff to hand

I have lots of 4 inch xtratherm insulation here, i can put that into the hives to down size them into a nuc. Maybe this could do if i don't get the nucs built in time because my misses has just informed me that i have an appointment ive to attend. Will i leave the inspection until youve figured out what to do.

 

[irishguy]

How many frames of brood (in any stage) on two?

I think given a bit of fair play 2 and 4 will be OK, there's still time

I can go take pics about 4 oclock inside each hive if that would be better.

 

[irishguy]

I'm on the edge of my seat
Well done Philip and JBM

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have lots of 4 inch xtratherm insulation here, i can put that into the hives to down size them into a nuc.

Good show, we can use that to dummy down. Will log in a bit later when I've had a think on my way home and a few hive inspections - work is interfering with my train of thought at the moment.

 

[joctcl]

Another option which was advised to me is, the association may have some virgin queens and if they do, get some and put into the Queen less hives.

What's your thoughts on this

If you have what you think is a complex problem you are far better off discussing apiary management and stocking strategies and scenarios with your local association rather than trying to cover all the permutations on a forum.
At the start of every year now I decide what I am going to do, whether its more nucs/hives or honey. I know as a new beekeeper thats hard and this year has been nuts, but don't be overtempted just to increase your number of hives just because you can.
What is happening at present is you are responding to each crisis in the apiary, what you need to be doing is managing/controlling it better.
This is not a lecture we all did it, I had 6 nucs in my second year of beekeeping and ended out giving 4 overwintered away to new beeks.
As some have already said, I would focus on building stronger hives for the winter.
I would also invest in some poly nucs which are great for getting smaller swarms off the ground.
Well done to all those that have contributed btw.

 

[irishguy]

If you have what you think is a complex problem you are far better off discussing apiary management and stocking strategies and scenarios with your local association rather than trying to cover all the permutations on a forum.
At the start of every year now I decide what I am going to do, whether its more nucs/hives or honey. I know as a new beekeeper thats hard and this year has been nuts, but don't be overtempted just to increase your number of hives just because you can.
What is happening at present is you are responding to each crisis in the apiary, what you need to be doing is managing/controlling it better.
This is not a lecture we all did it, I had 6 nucs in my second year of beekeeping and ended out giving 4 overwintered away to new beeks.
As some have already said, I would focus on building stronger hives for the winter.
I would also invest in some poly nucs which are great for getting smaller swarms off the ground.
Well done to all those that have contributed btw.

They are all away at gormonstown I phoned the guy I got the bees of and he suggested I pur a frame each into my supposedly Queen less hives. He is baffled as i am as to how there's Queen cells in these hives because there shouldn't have been larvae for them to build QCs with. I'll be taking pics of these when I'm out just to confirm they are defo QCs.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Okay - if i was closer i think I'd be knocking on your door in the morning, but as I'm not, this is the best I can do at the moment:

Cut some xtratherm to the size of the hive interior dimensions (wall to wall and all the way from floor to crown board).

No 1 hive – as you don’t have enough brood in any of the other hives you cannot give them a test frame. For now leave it alone for a couple of weeks to see what develops.

No 2 hive – are there any stores on the brood frames? If so, reduce down to five drawn frames (including the brood) dummy the sides with xtratherm put crown board on and honey filled super on top (you can deal with that later on) If no stores in frames well, dummy the brood the same but leave access to the super.

Will you have any drawn brood frames left from the hive after that? If so, keep to one side.

No 3 Hive. Give it another two weeks

No 4 Hive. Are there any stores on the brood frames? If so, reduce down to five drawn frames (including the brood) dummy the sides with xtratherm if no stores, then still dummy down but feed them a couple of pints 1:1 syrup. If you have some spare drawn comb put (at least) one next to existing brood.

No 5 Hive.– dummy this down to about six frames, give them a few pints of 1:1 syrup and leave for a couple of weeks.

No 6 hive if you have another spare frame of drawn comb put it in here – monitor stores situation.

As you seem to have a good supply of xtratherm consider putting a piece (cut to size on top of each crown board under the roof – although the 2 inch stuff would probably sit a bit better.

You can check 2 and 4 after a week to make sure they have plenty of laying space and if they don’t add another frame. But the others I would leave alone -3 and 6 for three or four weeks number one for a fortnight.
We need to concentrate on getting hives 2,4 and 6 up to fighting weight, not fret too much about the others – if they shape up, it’s a bonus.

As for the bloke who sold you the hives……I’ll keep my own counsel.But if he's suggesting giving them test frames, why doesn't he come down with a nuc full of them for you - it's the least he could do IMHO

If you can do this tomorrow, all well and good, if I think of anything else, we can always change it later, all the stuff above will not make anything worse and can be changed if needs be. The important thing now is after you do this, don't fiddle about but stick to the plan. Remind me in a week or two to revisit this.As for the honey filled super - you could have it away, but I would just give it back to this colony when it's stronger to help with winter feeding.

 

[pargyle]

Wow ... That sounds like a good Plan to me JBM ... One small fly in the ointment - I'm sure IG will be along in a minute to tell you himself - but I've just had the following PM from him as I sent him a PM saying do nothing until you have heard what the JBM Plan is

"Thanks again phil, but ive gone and put a frame each of larvae into the 2 queenless hives . I was on the phone to the guy who sold me the bees and he advised me to do this and i shot out and done it. I wish i had of seen your msg before then. Ive wrote down some notes of whats in each hive and have some pics included. Ill try and get them up as soon as possible."


.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[irishguy]

Thanks for the help guys but there might be a change of plan now that I've moved a few frames about after chatting to the guy I bought the bees off.


View attachment 10623

View attachment 10624

View attachment 10625

View attachment 10626

Here above is hive 4, there's only 2 frames where they have room to lay and both are full of brood, some larvae and eggs but just noticing now they don't have much stores of food. Most the other frames are empty apart from some small drawn out wax. The bees where really quiet and didn't really notice I was there. I left all these frames in place and closed up hive and took away feeder and super box.

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I then inspected the other hive with a laying queen, hive no2.


View attachment 10627
View attachment 10628
There was bees on 7 frames. There was eggs in 6 maybe 7 frames. Brood in others and larvae. It also had plenty of honey stores around each circle of eggs, brood. There was queen cups but nothing in them. Bees were OK and very busy but not as docile as no4.

_---------_----------------------------------------------------

View attachment 10629
View attachment 10630

View attachment 10631
View attachment 10632


Next I inspected no1 which was Queen less. This hive was very agitated, bees bouncing off suit again. The hive was busy enough.
Frame 11, 3/4 drawn (brown) wax both sides
Frame 10, fully drawn brown wax, 1/4 capped honey
Frame9, 1 side 1/2 capped honey, other side fully drawn wax
Frame 8 , Top of frame honey but not sealed, rest drawn wax both side's
Frame 7, capped honey, open honey both on both sides
Frame 6, open Queen cell, capped honey, Queen cups, honey etc.
Frame 5, queen cups, open queen cell, 1 closed queen cell.
Frame 4, capped honey, open brown wax, nectar and pollen
Frame3, opened queen cell, capped honey, pollen nectar
Frame 2,&1 drawn out wax

I took 1 frame of brood,eggs and larvae from hive2 and pit into this hive. I put it 4 frames from the front.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Lastly I inspected hive no4 which was also queenless.

View attachment 10633
View attachment 10634
View attachment 10635

Frame 12, nothing on foundation (nof)
Frame 11, some drawn clear wax
Frame10, (nof)
Frame9, some capped honey, drawn clear wax
Frame8, (nof)
Frame7, capped honey, drawn clear wax
Frame 6, (nof)
Frame5, 3/4 capped honey, drawn clear wax
Frame4, capped honey, drawn wax, nectar
Frame3, capped ho ey, queen cups, drawn wax
Frame2, closed queen cell, 3 hatched queen cells
Frame 1, capped honey at top, drawn wax.

I put 1 frame of brood,larvae, eggs in no3 slot from the front. I took this from.same hive as the other hive I took from





And here's the caste in the other hive box

View attachment 10636

 

[Nige.Coll]

wow they are all really weak mate good luck with them.
jbm seems to have a plan for you.

 

[pargyle]

Oh dear ....

"As for the bloke who sold you the hives……I’ll keep my own counsel.But if he's suggesting giving them test frames, why doesn't he come down with a nuc full of them for you - it's the least he could do IMHO"

Irishguy ... JBM has given you a really sensible plan ... You knew it was coming and yet you went ahead and rushed in and took advice from someone who, apparently, appears to take little responsibility for the colonies he originally sold you.

Is it any wonder that people on here get frustrated ?

My advice is do exactly as JBM has suggested - even if it means reversing what you did today ...

It's a straightforward plan ... it gives you a good chance of moving forward ... for goodness sake just do it ...

Phil

 

[irishguy]

Oh dear ....

"As for the bloke who sold you the hives……I’ll keep my own counsel.But if he's suggesting giving them test frames, why doesn't he come down with a nuc full of them for you - it's the least he could do IMHO"

Irishguy ... JBM has given you a really sensible plan ... You knew it was coming and yet you went ahead and rushed in and took advice from someone who, apparently, appears to take little responsibility for the colonies he originally sold you.

Is it any wonder that people on here get frustrated ?

My advice is do exactly as JBM has suggested - even if it means reversing what you did today ...

It's a straightforward plan ... it gives you a good chance of moving forward ... for goodness sake just do it ...

Phil

I know now I rushed in but earlier today I thought it was the best approach. To be fair thou, jbm was also suggesting aboutf rames also. If he comes back and tells me to reverse it, I will.

As for the bloke who sold me bees, I can't see it being his problem to be honest. He's been more than helpful enough and I don't really expect him to call out every time I have a problem. You see he lives half hour away and that's a few hours out of his day and not to forget all that fuel. He's been helpful enough over the phone and anytime I phone him, he's very helpful.




Also, I'm my last post with the pica i near the end I say I inspected hive no4, that's a mistake as its supposed to say hive no3.

 

[drex]

"Here above is hive 4, there's only 2 frames where they have room to lay and both are full of brood, ........they don't have much stores of food.......took away feeder and super box."
Now that is Irish!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

This is turning out to be a real Whitehall Farce. All it needs is Brian Rix.
To Irish Guy - you really must stop listening to all and sundry and follow one course of action. JBM has spent a great deal of time and effort sifting through a series of very confusing posts and produced a series of actions for you designed to bring you and your bees forward.
It's time for you to make up your mind which ONE person you are going to heed and follow. I suggest it be JBM. If you keep jumping around from adviser to adviser you cannot expect to achieve a satisfactory outcome.