what would you do

[midnight sun]

Never would have guessed that!.

Is this a wind up, too?

I was only responding to Pargyles post #2 or 3?, for the benefit of the OP, where he indicated that virgins don't lay until they are mated. Just what did you think happened if a virgin did not get mated?

Errm!.......no, just had a 'hard of thinking moment'! LOL. Oh the shame!
I'll read some of my 'simple' bee keeping books while flogging myself with knotted rope ends as penance tonight!
Forgive me fellow beeks!

 

[pargyle]

As an aside virgin queens do lay, although they are clearly useless.

Yes ... of course RAB ... should be more careful with my words .... missed out the 'viable eggs' bit ... but, having said that, on this thread, it would probably invoke more confusion than there is already ... !! Waiting, with bated breath, the report after the apiary visit ... your assistance may be needed ... P

PS: after nearly 4 weeks I'm not convinced there are any live virgins left in these hives ... time will tell.

 

[irishguy]

You and me as well .. I'm still a little confused about what hives you have - from the sounds of it:

Hive 1 - A full size hive with a small caste swarm with a virgin at the head.
Hive 2 - A Nucleus with a laying queen but she's not laying very well and for reasons we don't know has not got much space to lay in.
Hive 3 - A full size hive with a laying queen and BIAS
Hive 4 - A full size hive which you think is queenless.
Hive 5 - A nucleus which you created from one your hives that swarmed (not sure if this is a separate Nuc or is the Nuc at Hive 2 above.)

If you could keep your replies to something like the above format, forget the irrelevant comments then perhaps someone is going to be able to suggest the best course of action.

Paint some numbers on your hives and refer to them by number (and stay consistent) we might have a chance of understanding what colonies you have.

Perhaps, once you get back on here tonight you could give us a clearer picture of the present situation and someone will be able to advise the best course of action.

In round terms what I would be looking at it is establishing which colonies are definitely queenless (with a test frame). Then combining the stronger of your colonies with laying queens with the ones that are queenless and/or those headed up with virgins who you think may not have mated successfully (I would be surprised, this year, if there were any virgins that DIDN'T get mated the weather has been so good).

EDIT.. WILL UPLOAD PIC LATER BECAUSE HAVING PROBLEMS DOING SO NOW!

Here's a pic of what I have now. No1&2 where the original hives before swarm. No3 is the AS from no1. Both are Queen less and now have capped QCs ready to hatch( brown tips) and there might even be another virgin queen in each because there's also hatched QCs but I'm not 100% sure if these aren't the original virgn queens but they defo look newish. No1 is abit aggressive as when I was doing the inspection, they where very agitated and where bouncing of my suit.

No 4 is the AS (was a queenless AS when split from no2)we did from no2. Both have laying queens and are very docile. No2 is a full hive with plenty stores and room to lay. It als has some brood, some larvae and lots of eggs, also standing up eggs so the queen is defo there today. No4 is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.

No6 is the cast that swarmed from no3, 1 day after we did the AS from no1. It has a queen and some bees. The queen is laying but there is only a small part of the frame where she's doing this because the bees haven't drew out much wax.

No5 is the cast swarm I got yesterday. Its in a hive with 5 ( or 6) frames with foundation. I didn't check this but noticed bees flying in and out.


What I think is the best approach is to unite 1&4 and 2&3 and knock off the QCs and get rid of any virgin queens. When doing this, I will then have some frames with stores and wax left over and I can give to no6(nuc box) and no5 (the cast) and also give them a frame each with larvae or brood.

 

[kazmcc]

First sign of larva today.

Brilliant news! I love your obs hive

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

EDIT.. WILL UPLOAD PIC LATER BECAUSE HAVING PROBLEMS DOING SO NOW!

Here's a pic of what I have now. No1&2 where the original hives before swarm. No3 is the AS from no1. Both are Queen less and now have capped QCs ready to hatch( brown tips) and there might even be another virgin queen in each because there's also hatched QCs but I'm not 100% sure if these aren't the original virgn queens but they defo look newish. No1 is abit aggressive as when I was doing the inspection, they where very agitated and where bouncing of my suit.

No 4 is the AS (was a queenless AS when split from no2)we did from no2. Both have laying queens and are very docile. No2 is a full hive with plenty stores and room to lay. It als has some brood, some larvae and lots of eggs, also standing up eggs so the queen is defo there today. No4 is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.

No6 is the cast that swarmed from no3, 1 day after we did the AS from no1. It has a queen and some bees. The queen is laying but there is only a small part of the frame where she's doing this because the bees haven't drew out much wax.

No5 is the cast swarm I got yesterday. Its in a hive with 5 ( or 6) frames with foundation. I didn't check this but noticed bees flying in and out.


What I think is the best approach is to unite 1&4 and 2&3 and knock off the QCs and get rid of any virgin queens. When doing this, I will then have some frames with stores and wax left over and I can give to no6(nuc box) and no5 (the cast) and also give them a frame each with larvae or brood.

I think I'll just wander up to the top of the garden for a little cry

 

[irishguy]

I think I'll just wander up to the top of the garden for a little cry

Very constructive advice, thanks for popping in

 

[irishguy]

View attachment 10620

 

[pargyle]

I think I'll just wander up to the top of the garden for a little cry

I like a good puzzle - and this is NOTHING like a good puzzle ! But ... glutton for punishment that I am I will try again (these are now Irishguys Numbers - NOT my original ones to avoid confusion !).

No. 1 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. This hive is a bit aggressive. (Could be queenless)

No. 2 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed.

You think ! & 2 above are queenless but you say there are capped queen cells in these hives but there are also uncapped queen cells and there may be virgin queens wandering about in them ?

But later on you say No. 2 Hive "is a full hive with plenty stores and room to lay. It also has some brood, some larvae and lots of eggs, also standing up eggs so the queen is defo there today"

No. 3 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 1.

No. 4 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 2. and you say "is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey."

No. 5 Hive - Is a hive with just four or five frames of foundation and the caste you were given yesterday (If it's a Caste can we assume that there is a virgin queen in there ?).

N0. 6 Hive -Originated from Hive 3 as a caste but now has a laying queen but there is not much comb drawn out so little space to lay. (If it's a caste then we assume it's a small colony and not capable of drawing wax out).

Hive 1, 2, 3 & 4 Appear to be National Brood Boxes each with a Super on them.

Hive No. 5 Appears to be a single National Brood box.

Hive No. 6 Appears to be a Nucleus.

There's STILL some confusion but perhaps someone who likes a challenge can put forward some suggestions ...

 

[irishguy]

I like a good puzzle - and this is NOTHING like a good puzzle ! But ... glutton for punishment that I am I will try again (these are now Irishguys Numbers - NOT my original ones to avoid confusion !).

No. 1 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. This hive is a bit aggressive. (Could be queenless). Yes, this was split with an AS and was left with an open and closed QC. The AS went into no3. It has a super on for room because all but 1 frame is drawn. There's still room for laying but I wasn't to sure they'd have enough room even thou it isn't a full hive of bees. This is the reason why the super is there

No. 2 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed.] this
Hive swarmed but couldn't find the clipped queen. It now has a laying queen and larvae. It has empty brood frames, probably 4. It also has a super 3/4 capped honey. I was going to take this off but just decided to leave it until I knew what was happening with the virgin queen. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

You think ! & 2 above are queenless but you say there are capped queen cells in these hives but there are also uncapped queen cells and there may be virgin queens wandering about in them ?

But later on you say No. 2 Hive "is a full hive with plenty stores and room to lay. It also has some brood, some larvae and lots of eggs, also standing up eggs so the queen is defo there today"

No. 3 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 1. Yes and this is one of the hives with the queen cell and Queen less. The super was just in place so I could feed 3 weeks ago. Feeder is empty but haven't removed yet

No. 4 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 2. and you say "is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.". Correct. Super was there to cover the feeder, just didn't remove it yet

No. 5 Hive - Is a hive with just four or five frames of foundation and the caste you were given yesterday (If it's a Caste can we assume that there is a virgin queen in there ?).

N0. 6 Hive -Originated from Hive 3 as a caste but now has a laying queen but there is not much comb drawn out so little space to lay. (If it's a caste then we assume it's a small colony and not capable of drawing wax out).

Hive 1, 2, 3 & 4 Appear to be National Brood Boxes each with a Super on them.

Hive No. 5 Appears to be a single National Brood box. This is the caste with empty frames. I was going to join it with one of the boxes.

Hive No. 6 Appears to be a Nucleus. Yes, nuc box with 4 frames ( insulation in place of frame 5. Should be another slot of insulation but didn't get round to installing it). This nuc box has a laying queen but not enough drawn wax for her.

There's STILL some confusion but perhaps someone who likes a challenge can put forward some suggestions ...

Hope this clears the confusion even thou the colouring ony text above didn't come our right

 

[Nige.Coll]

totally confused and have no idea wtf you are doing.

Everything is based on logic, well pretty much.
It's not that complicated .
if your Q+ and have space and food all is good they will sort it out.
if your q- and have space and food then something is wrong and you need to fix it.
test frame,uniting whatever it's in your hands to supply them with a solution you are the beekeeper.
bees have tolerated us for thousands of years just help them out if they are in a mess.

 

[pargyle]

Hope this clears the confusion

Originally Posted by pargyle View Post
I like a good puzzle - and this is NOTHING like a good puzzle ! But ... glutton for punishment that I am I will try again (these are now Irishguys Numbers - NOT my original ones to avoid confusion !).

No. 1 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. This hive is a bit aggressive. (Could be queenless). Yes, this has a super on for room because all but 1 frame is drawn. There's still room for laying but I wasn't to sure they'd have enough room even thou it isn't a full hive of bees. This is the reason why the super is there

No. 2 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. Yes this hive swarmed but couldn't find the clipped queen. It has a laying queen and larvae. It has empty brood frames, probably 4. It also has a super 3/4 capped honey. I was going to take this off but just decided to leave it until I knew what was happening with the virgin queen.

You think ! & 2 above are queenless but you say there are capped queen cells in these hives but there are also uncapped queen cells and there may be virgin queens wandering about in them ?

But later on you say No. 2 Hive "is a full hive with plenty stores and room to lay. It also has some brood, some larvae and lots of eggs, also standing up eggs so the queen is defo there today"

No. 3 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 1. Yes and this is one of the hives with the queen cell and Queen less. The super was just in place so I could feed 3 weeks ago. Feeder is empty but haven't removed yet.

No. 4 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 2. and you say "is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.". Correct. Super was there to cover the feeder, just didn't remove it yet

No. 5 Hive - Is a hive with just four or five frames of foundation and the caste you were given yesterday (If it's a Caste can we assume that there is a virgin queen in there ?).

N0. 6 Hive -Originated from Hive 3 as a caste but now has a laying queen but there is not much comb drawn out so little space to lay. (If it's a caste then we assume it's a small colony and not capable of drawing wax out).

Hive 1, 2, 3 & 4 Appear to be National Brood Boxes each with a Super on them.

Hive No. 5 Appears to be a single National Brood box. This is the caste with empty frames. I was going to join it with one of the boxes.

Hive No. 6 Appears to be a Nucleus. Yes, nuc box with 4 frames ( insulation in place of frame 5. Should be another slot of insulation but didn't get round to installing it). This nuc box has a laying queen but not enough drawn wax for her.

 

[pargyle]

Right - Questions to be answered are in BLUE

No. 1 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. This hive is a bit aggressive. (Could be queenless). Yes, this has a super on for room because all but 1 frame is drawn. There's still room for laying but I wasn't to sure they'd have enough room even thou it isn't a full hive of bees. This is the reason why the super is there

Has this hive got a Queen that is laying ?

No. 2 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. Yes this hive swarmed but couldn't find the clipped queen. It has a laying queen and larvae. It has empty brood frames, probably 4. It also has a super 3/4 capped honey. I was going to take this off but just decided to leave it until I knew what was happening with the virgin queen.

Has this hive got a laying Queen ?
Which Virgin Queen are you talking about ?

No. 3 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 1. Yes and this is one of the hives with the queen cell and Queen less. The super was just in place so I could feed 3 weeks ago. Feeder is empty but haven't removed yet.

Is this hive Queenless ?
How many bees are in there (Lots, not many, some) ?

No. 4 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 2. and you say "is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.". Correct. Super was there to cover the feeder, just didn't remove it yet

Never mind the super - Is it correct that it has a laying queen with plentiful eggs & brood ?

No. 5 Hive - Is a hive with just four or five frames of foundation and the caste you were given yesterday (If it's a Caste can we assume that there is a virgin queen in there ?).

So ...confirm there's no laying queen in this hive ?

N0. 6 Hive -Originated from Hive 3 as a caste but now has a laying queen but there is not much comb drawn out so little space to lay.

This nuc box has a laying queen but not enough drawn wax for her.[/COLOR]

 

[pargyle]

OK Everyone .... with just a few more questions answered I think we might have got to the point where we have some idea about what Irishguy has in the way of his colonies.

Clearly, there are a few issues which need to be addressed - He's got hives that appear to be queenless, some which have virgins, too much space in some boxes and not enough in others ...

What he needs is a PLAN for each of the six hives.

So ... Can you all put your thinking caps on tomorrow (I'm off to bed now and at work tomorrow) and perhaps by tomorrow evening we can give him a plan for each of his hives that will give him some chance of successfully overwintering a couple of good, big, colonies that next year he can take some splits from and get up to the 6 or so hives that he would like.

I know it's been a PITA getting this far - but give him another chance .... Phil

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

OK Phil
The right questions have been asked in your last post - if we get straight answers to those (no side tracking, just straight answers) we may be getting somewhere - also like to know whether there are any queen cells in #1?

 

[thorn]

Right - Questions to be answered are in BLUE

No. 1 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. This hive is a bit aggressive. (Could be queenless). Yes, this has a super on for room because all but 1 frame is drawn. There's still room for laying but I wasn't to sure they'd have enough room even thou it isn't a full hive of bees. This is the reason why the super is there

Has this hive got a Queen that is laying ?

No. 2 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. Yes this hive swarmed but couldn't find the clipped queen. It has a laying queen and larvae. It has empty brood frames, probably 4. It also has a super 3/4 capped honey. I was going to take this off but just decided to leave it until I knew what was happening with the virgin queen.

Has this hive got a laying Queen ?
Which Virgin Queen are you talking about ?

No. 3 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 1. Yes and this is one of the hives with the queen cell and Queen less. The super was just in place so I could feed 3 weeks ago. Feeder is empty but haven't removed yet.

Is this hive Queenless ?
How many bees are in there (Lots, not many, some) ?

No. 4 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 2. and you say "is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.". Correct. Super was there to cover the feeder, just didn't remove it yet

Never mind the super - Is it correct that it has a laying queen with plentiful eggs & brood ?

No. 5 Hive - Is a hive with just four or five frames of foundation and the caste you were given yesterday (If it's a Caste can we assume that there is a virgin queen in there ?).

So ...confirm there's no laying queen in this hive ?

N0. 6 Hive -Originated from Hive 3 as a caste but now has a laying queen but there is not much comb drawn out so little space to lay.

This nuc box has a laying queen but not enough drawn wax for her.[/COLOR]

Yes or no answers please. Nothing more. For one of our resident experts to advise you they simply need to know which hives have mated queens, which have virgin queens and which are queenless.

 

[farbee]

10/10 for your effort Phil. Not many would take the time you have to unpick this one.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

10/10 for your effort Phil. Not many would take the time you have to unpick this one.

Fair play - think of all the 'staring out of the window' time he's sacrificing at work whilst cogitating this! I'm making the most of it as It's been confirmed today that I am taking on a new job as fleet support officer for the whole of UK Immigration enforcement (vehicles not patrol boats BTW) Therefore back to standing orders where we are not allowed to look out the windows in the morning (otherwise we'd have nothing to do in the afternoon!)

 

[irishguy]

Right - Questions to be answered are in BLUE

No. 1 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. This hive is a bit aggressive. (Could be queenless). Yes, this has a super on for room because all but 1 frame is drawn. There's still room for laying but I wasn't to sure they'd have enough room even thou it isn't a full hive of bees. This is the reason why the super is there

Has this hive got a Queen that is laying ?. No queen and has queen cell ready to hatch today or tomorrow. May have a new virgin queen emerge in last 7 days.

No. 2 Hive - Was one of your original hives which swarmed. Yes this hive swarmed but couldn't find the clipped queen. It has a laying queen and larvae. It has empty brood frames, probably 4. It also has a super 3/4 capped honey. I was going to take this off but just decided to leave it until I knew what was happening with the virgin queen.

Has this hive got a laying Queen ?
Which Virgin Queen are you talking about ?. This has a new laying queen. Some brood, larvae and lots of eggs and lots of old bees. Possibly 3 undrawn brood frames and just under 3/4 full super with capped honey.

No. 3 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 1. Yes and this is one of the hives with the queen cell and Queen less. The super was just in place so I could feed 3 weeks ago. Feeder is empty but haven't removed yet.

Is this hive Queenless ?
How many bees are in there (Lots, not many, some) ?. Yes, hive queenless with capped QC and maybe another new virgin queen ( looks like another hatch QC but not 100% its the first hatch QC). Bees on about 4 or 5 frames. Rest of frames drawn out with wax and honey.

No. 4 Hive - Was created as an AS from Hive 2. and you say "is only a few frames but is plentiful with brood, eggs, larvae, wax and honey.". Correct. Super was there to cover the feeder, just didn't remove it yet

Never mind the super - Is it correct that it has a laying queen with plentiful eggs & brood ?. Yes, laying queen, lots of larvae and eggs and brood. When i say lots, its probably 1 and 3/4 frame but compared to the rest of th hives, its alot. I would think this hive needs a frame with drawn wax to give her more room to lay quicker.



No. 5 Hive - Is a hive with just four or five frames of foundation and the caste you were given yesterday (If it's a Caste can we assume that there is a virgin queen in there ?).

So ...confirm there's no laying queen in this hive ?. Was told its a virgin queen when given this caste. How old she is, im not to sure yet.

N0. 6 Hive -Originated from Hive 3 as a caste but now has a laying queen but there is not much comb drawn out so little space to lay.

This nuc box has a laying queen but not enough drawn wax for her.[/COLOR]

. Yes, its a caste with the original marked queen. Not many bees or drawn comb/ wax

 

[REDWOOD]

I'm not going to tell you what to do but what you should achieve before the winter is strong colonies. You obviously have lots of small colonies, casts, virgin queens and you do not know the outcome until you have sealed brood and no strong colony to take a frame of emerging brood. Small colonies struggle to get going and might never will because the small amount of nurse bees. Personally I would start uniting now to get strong colonies which can look after brood. You can unit hives that are queen less. Cut your losses or potential losses before it's too late, It's better to have bees doing something than sitting on frames waiting for queens to get mated.

 

[irishguy]

I'm not going to tell you what to do but what you should achieve before the winter is strong colonies. You obviously have lots of small colonies, casts, virgin queens and you do not know the outcome until you have sealed brood and no strong colony to take a frame of emerging brood. Small colonies struggle to get going and might never will because the small amount of nurse bees. Personally I would start uniting now to get strong colonies which can look after brood. You can unit hives that are queen less. Cut your losses or potential losses before it's too late, It's better to have bees doing something than sitting on frames waiting for queens to get mated.

Yeah thats what i was thinking aswell. What i think i should do(still a newbie so go easy on me if im wrong lol) is unite no1 with no4 and unite no3 with no2 and i should have some frames of stores/ wax left over and give to my nuc with laying queen which will give her room to lay. Maybe give her some nurse bees or even brood. If theres still frames left over, gives these to the caste and see how it gets on with them and hopefully ill go into winter with 2 strong colonies and 1 or 2 nucs.