What is happening to our queens

[mbc]

Most beekeepers don't do any breeding at all. They trust to luck - just as you are doing with maternal selection. That isn't breeding.

I beg to differ.

 

[Murox]

Following on a little from B+ and mbc, I suppose using "maternal selection" is in the first few years only a little more than simple 'multiplication'. Depending on your scale (and the influence of nearby apiaries), as pointed out over time there will be a shift in genetics that is loosely predictable owing to the selections repeatedly made. Maybe the definition of breeding means slightly different things to other people.
In the end though it's all about "performance" - whatever that might mean for you - isn't it ?

 

[mbc]

Following on a little from B+ and mbc, I suppose using "maternal selection" is in the first few years only a little more than simple 'multiplication'. Depending on your scale (and the influence of nearby apiaries), as pointed out over time there will be a shift in genetics that is loosely predictable owing to the selections repeatedly made. Maybe the definition of breeding means slightly different things to other people.
In the end though it's all about "performance" - whatever that might mean for you - isn't it ?

Maternal selection in year 1 for large numbers has a goodly influence on paternal selection in years 2, 3 and going forwards.

 

[Murox]

Maternal selection in year 1 for large numbers has a goodly influence on paternal selection in years 2, 3 and going forwards.

In large numbers - yes what sort of numbers are needed to notice the influence ? and going forward is the effect cumulative and stable (as far as it can be with open mating)?

 

[mbc]

In large numbers - yes what sort of numbers are needed to notice the influence ? and going forward is the effect cumulative and stable (as far as it can be with open mating)?

All a moveable feast depending on colony density, topography, migratory beekeeping and whatever imports get into an area.
My opinion, difficult to base any of it on fact as there are so many uncontrollable variables, is that if you have a mating apiary in a valley and say half a dozen apiaries flanking it with half a dozen good drone colonies in each, you stand a good chance of the majority of matings being with drones from your hives.
Of course even in sparsely populated west Wales I've not got any valley entirely to my own bees, but most beekeepers won't upset the apple cart too much.
I wouldn't want to comment too much on long term stability, my mum says "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride", and each batch of matings is only a snapshot of what's in the air at the time.
What I would say is that it's two steps forwards, one step back but the general trend is forwards. Of course as things improve then expectations rise, and subsequent disappointment when all your wishes don't automatically turn into reality.
A work in progress and onwards and upwards.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I'd just like to say how much I've been educated and entertained by this thread, particularly latterly by the conversation between, among others, Boston Bees and Beesnaturally. People who have not been here so long can find the straight talking a bit off-putting. I think it would be a shame if any of them didn't hang around though. This forum, by which I mean all the people who share their experience, opinions, and wisdom, is a very valuable resource - for me, anyway.

Apologies for the interruption to the thread. Carry on.

 

[B+.]

All a moveable feast depending on colony density, topography, migratory beekeeping and whatever imports get into an area.
My opinion, difficult to base any of it on fact as there are so many uncontrollable variables, is that if you have a mating apiary in a valley and say half a dozen apiaries flanking it with half a dozen good drone colonies in each, you stand a good chance of the majority of matings being with drones from your hives.
Of course even in sparsely populated west Wales I've not got any valley entirely to my own bees, but most beekeepers won't upset the apple cart too much.
I wouldn't want to comment too much on long term stability, my mum says "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride", and each batch of matings is only a snapshot of what's in the air at the time.
What I would say is that it's two steps forwards, one step back but the general trend is forwards. Of course as things improve then expectations rise, and subsequent disappointment when all your wishes don't automatically turn into reality.
A work in progress and onwards and upwards.

When I talk about breeding, I mean controlled propagation within a population where heritable characters may be passed from one generation to the next - not in individual lines but the population as a whole. What you describe is not controlled breeding.

 

[Swarm]

Some don't agree with you, Paul.

 

[B+.]

Some don't agree with you, Paul.

You can't please everyone.

 

[user 20297]

People who have not been here so long can find the straight talking a bit off-putting. I think it would be a shame if any of them didn't hang around though.

I also found that conversation enlightening and it makes a change to look in on arguments put forward which support such widely different aproaches to beekeeping. "Straight talking" needn't be rude or intended to humiliate other people and in the short time I've been around, some threads have veered that way. There sometimes seems to be a bit of a pack mentality which sets in when some time-served, successful beekeepers "smell the blood" of an unconventional beekeeper.

 

[B+.]

I also found that conversation enlightening and it makes a change to look in on arguments put forward which support such widely different aproaches to beekeeping. "Straight talking" needn't be rude or intended to humiliate other people and in the short time I've been around, some threads have veered that way. There sometimes seems to be a bit of a pack mentality which sets in when some time-served, successful beekeepers "smell the blood" of an unconventional beekeeper.

There is nothing wrong with being unconventional. Several notable successes have come from unconventional thinking. However, "the path least trod" argument does not excuse the absolute whacko from expounding any bizarre theory they can imagine. At some point, the "real world" has to be faced

 

[Murox]

I also found that conversation enlightening and it makes a change to look in on arguments put forward which support such widely different aproaches to beekeeping. "Straight talking" needn't be rude or intended to humiliate other people and in the short time I've been around, some threads have veered that way. There sometimes seems to be a bit of a pack mentality which sets in when some time-served, successful beekeepers "smell the blood" of an unconventional beekeeper.

Pack mentality ~ well it happens everywhere sadly ~ nothing amiss with being unconventional though.

 

[rolande]

There sometimes seems to be a bit of a pack mentality which sets in when some time-served, successful beekeepers "smell the blood" of an unconventional beekeeper.

The ones that jump to my mind as being successful are usually nowhere to be seen when the pack descends.

 

[Murox]

All a moveable feast depending on colony density, topography, migratory beekeeping and whatever imports get into an area.
My opinion, difficult to base any of it on fact as there are so many uncontrollable variables, is that if you have a mating apiary in a valley and say half a dozen apiaries flanking it with half a dozen good drone colonies in each, you stand a good chance of the majority of matings being with drones from your hives.
Of course even in sparsely populated west Wales I've not got any valley entirely to my own bees, but most beekeepers won't upset the apple cart too much.
I wouldn't want to comment too much on long term stability, my mum says "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride", and each batch of matings is only a snapshot of what's in the air at the time.
What I would say is that it's two steps forwards, one step back but the general trend is forwards. Of course as things improve then expectations rise, and subsequent disappointment when all your wishes don't automatically turn into reality.
A work in progress and onwards and upwards.

Thanks for your candor. " two steps forwards, one step back but the general trend is forwards." sounds very familiar.

 

[Swarm]

It's generally the way with most good husbandry.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Got a bee breeder near me, him and his 8 colonies working on locally adapted bees. SARCASM.
He's been raving how much more productive his bees have been over the last 2-3 years, his queens improve every year.
Haven't told him his queens are mating with the Buckfast drones from the 40 colonies I have in that area.
He's happy.
Perk of being near my queen rearing apiary I guess.

 

[B+.]

Got a bee breeder near me, him and his 8 colonies working on locally adapted bees.
He's been raving how much more productive his bees have been over the last 2-3 years, his queens improve every year.
Haven't told him his queens are mating with the Buckfast drones from the 40 colonies I have in that area.
He's happy.
Perk of being near my queen rearing apiary I guess.

Yes. I hear this all the time. You'll never convince some people that everything is related. The only way to be sure is to use II

 

[Boston Bees]

Got a bee breeder near me, him and his 8 colonies working on locally adapted bees.
He's been raving how much more productive his bees have been over the last 2-3 years, his queens improve every year.
Haven't told him his queens are mating with the Buckfast drones from the 40 colonies I have in that area.
He's happy.
Perk of being near my queen rearing apiary I guess.

Meanwhile, you are happily still thinking you have "Buckfast bees"

Just kidding

We're all guilty of deluding ourselves in some ways I think.

 

[pargyle]

There sometimes seems to be a bit of a pack mentality which sets in when some time-served, successful beekeepers "smell the blood" of an unconventional beekeeper.

Oh I don't know ..there are not many on here that are more unconventional than me. ... I've occasionally faced a bit of opposition from some individuals about my ideas and ideals but I've never felt that there was any concerted pack forming. It's a forum .. you can expect strong principles on either side of a debate and some middle of the road responses.

Keep it amicable, try not to take it personally and don't read too much into posts that, on the face of it, appear rude or overtly critical. We are all beekeepers at the end of the day and I'm sure if we were all stood in the pub together we would get along - we do have something pretty much in common.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Meanwhile, you are happily still thinking you have "Buckfast bees"

Just kidding

We're all guilty of deluding ourselves in some ways I think.

Yeah I'm happy to delude myself that the queens I buy in for a few hundred pounds a time from reputable breeders that are either II or island mated are in fact what I pay for and their daughters will be pretty much the same. I don't use their grand daughters.

At least I'm not pretending the bees I have that are descended from imports are native.