What constitutes a "heavy" varroa load?

[oliver90owner]

Your varroa expert obviously got ythe wrong country, Finman. Should have gone to Bulgaria. Stop drinking straight from the bottle!!

 

[For want of a better word]

Doing nothing is not the answer.

Depends at what point you decide to do nothing! With a light loading, that decision is the correct one for most situations.

Aha!.. but doing nothing IS doing something !
even if it is nothing!!

Beginning to feel a bit like that OOzlum bird that flew around and around in circles until it disappeared up its own.......

 

[oliver90owner]

Did you know that 'doing nothing' is really the END because if you are really doing nothing you will never know when you have finished!

 

[Finman]

Your varroa expert obviously got ythe wrong country, Finman. Should have gone to Bulgaria. Stop drinking straight from the bottle!!

Never thought that! Perhaps they did not accepted him to Bulgarian aeroplane?

 

[itma]

{Thymolated syrup may have an effect on varroa, but I don't really count it as a 'varroa treatment'.}

IT HAS NOT! Never seen researches that it has. There is no treamtment whick make a bee blood poisonous to mites. And there is no treamnet which affects under the brood cap.

Finman, did you see the link Hivemaker posted today?
Its a 2009 paper - http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/35712/1/IND44273329.pdf
They seem to demonstrate 'treatment' getting under the brood cell cap.
Which should be pretty exciting.

They were principally using Origanum Oil. That oil contains Carvacrol and Thymol, which are nearly identical chemical compounds. (Is Carvacrol as toxic to the mites as Thymol is?)

They are claiming to have shown some important things.
- These oils being tracked from the bee feeder into the bee larvae, and their concentration there varying with the age of the larva.
- The oils being present in the sealed cell, particularly as a result of feeding the oil together with protein, so that larval Carvacrol peaks in the day 9 larva (immediately before sealing).
- Seemingly Carvacrol (and to a lesser extent Thymol) get to the larva, but some other compounds tested did not.

This shows a mechanism by which Thymolated (or perhaps Carvacrolated) feeding could be very effective against the mite. (But that isn't specifically what they are reporting.)

I am disappointed to note the conflicts of interest in this research.
The protein feed that was so effective at getting the oils into the sealed cell is the product of a Company operated by two of the researchers.
And was developed by their company (or them) working with two of the other researchers who are employed by the US Dept of Agriculture.

I would hope that someone independent would be able to reproduce these results.

Meanwhile, would Hivemaker consider straying from Manley's Thymol syrup to Dr Wardell's Oregano-infused protein 'smoothie'?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Meanwhile, would Hivemaker consider straying from Manley's Thymol syrup to Dr Wardell's Oregano-infused protein 'smoothie'?

No problem Itma,but use feedbee instead,much the same thing and easily available here,there are plenty of pollen pattie recipes that could be used,and megabee is just one manufacturer among many.

My use of thymol and other eo's is mainly for prevention of nosema,a much worse problem than varroa.
http://www.docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/pjbs/2005/1142-1145.pdf

 

[Finman]

.
World is full of all kinds of oregano writers. Probably I have read more varroa researches than Hivemaker.

Problem is that the queen eate daily tens of time smore food than a worker.

I am sure that if you put enough oregano on your piza, your hairs will get loosen and miten with them. Don't forget garlic.

 

[Finman]

Finman, did you see the link Hivemaker posted today?
Its a 2009 paper - http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/35712/1/IND44273329.pdf
[
I would hope that someone independent would be able to reproduce these results.
?

I do not keep usda as varroa expert. The guys behind the organisation are not allways full headed. European experts are 10 years ahead in this case.

There are names where I can trust on. http://printfu.org/read/oxalic-acid...fVyenOlM3h6s7X1MrjoZuepJmk28ba1OrZ3ZbV1NiLqfE

 

[Finman]

Timing of anti-Varroa treatment and survival of winter beesCoby van Dooremalen, Tjeerd Blacquiere, Jozef van der Steen, Bram Cornelissen, Lonne Geritsen, Frank van Langevelde.

Colony Collapse Disorder has multifactorial causes such as habitat degradation, invasive species, pesticides, and agricultural and beekeeping practices. In this study, we focused on the effect of Varroa destructor on the vitality of the bee colony. Timing of anti-varroa treatment can possibly affect the transition to winter bees. The use of the chemicals or the presence of mites during the development of the winter bee pupae possibly reduces the lifespan of the bees, causing the bees to die before spring has been reached.
Assigned 12 hives to 4 groups, differing in timing of anti-Varroa treatment: July, August, September, or not treated at all. Anti-Varroa treatment consisted of three weeks of formic acid evaporation in the hives. All groups were additionally treated in December using oxalic acid trickling. Mite fall was measured to check the Varroa infestation and the affectivity of the treatments. Lifespan was measured, marking 100 newborn bees (cohort) per hive every two weeks and counting the number of survivors every two weeks during July and April the next year. The cumulative survival from these curves was used as a measure for lifespan. Brood was also counted every two weeks. Winter survival was determined by counting the number of frames occupied with bees in April the next year.
Mite fall showed that indeed more mites died during and after anti-Varroa treatment in July, August, or September than after treatment. However, treatment in December caused the largest reduction in mite fall. Cumulative survival showed that the lifespan increased during the fall (August-November), showing the transition to winter bees, and showed that the bees of the hives treated in July had the longest lifespan of all groups. Bees of the hives treated in August and September had a longer lifespan than bees in hives that were not treated. The amount of brood indeed decreased with the increase in lifespan during the season. In April the next year, the hives that were not treated with formic acid during the experiment, showed much lower probabilities for the frames in the hives to be occupied (1 out of 10 frames) with bees compared to the hives that were treated during July, August, or September (6 to 7 frames out of 10 frames).
Although beekeepers often do not like to treat their hives against V. destructor during July, the period that they are most probably collecting honey, treating the bees before their transition to winter bees does increase their lifespan and thus increases their chances to survive winter. Treating hives against Varroa in August or September results in lower lifespan of the winter bees than treating them in July, but a longer lifespan than not treating them at all. Differences between the numbers of frames with bees in April the next year were in this study to small to be significant between anti-Varroa treatment in July, August or September. However, it would be interesting to follow these hives for multiple years. The differences in winter survival could potentially lead to larger differences in winter survival over multiple years.

http://www.coloss.org/documents/wg3...-vitality-wageningen-30-june-2013-1-july-2011

 

[itma]

Finman, did you see the link Hivemaker posted today?
Its a 2009 paper - http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/35712/1/IND44273329.pdf
They seem to demonstrate 'treatment' getting under the brood cell cap.
...

.
World is full of all kinds of oregano writers. ...
Problem is that the queen eate daily tens of time smore food than a worker.
... Don't forget garlic.

I do not keep usda as varroa expert. The guys behind the organisation are not allways full headed. European experts are 10 years ahead in this case...

Since the paper is on seven closely printed pages, I think it might be best to quote the part of the discussion relevant to the treatment getting into the brood cell, under the cap. (Its at the end of the 'Discussion' section.) The emphasis is mine.

Although larvae stop feeding just before capping,
their cells are contaminated by faeces and are often provisioned with
brood food that may contain supplemental oil components. Our
results indicate that fifth instar {day 9} larvae from oil-supplemented colonies
spin cocoons with detectable residues of carvacrol, particularly when
the oils had been added to a protein diet. Whilst it is unclear whether
the carvacrol residues are acquired directly from contaminated silk,
faeces, or indirectly from contact with the larva, brood food, or the
cell proper, the residues become enclosed with invading mites and
their larval host after capping.
Paradoxically, mites that are not deterred from cell invasion may
be killed or disabled by trace oil components once the open cell is
capped over. Volatiles released from surfaces in an open cell rarely
achieve high local concentrations because the vapour components are
constantly lost by diffusion and convection to the much greater
volume of the hive environment. By contrast, oil volatiles are largely
trapped within the cell volume once the cell is capped over with a
relatively impermeable wax cap. Even small traces of oil components
can build toward saturation and persist longer, probably due to the
slow transit of oil vapours through or into wax.

Which appears to show the oil treatment being sealed beneath the cap (at least when the Carvacrol/Thymol is fed with protein).

However, this investigation was limited to demonstrating the transport of the Oils - not what the effect of those Oils, at the measured concentration, was on the mites and the bees.

Further studies should
investigate whether the small amounts of carvacrol and thymol
residues inside capped cells can restrict mite survival and reproductive
success without injuring the bee brood host.

I expect that the choice of their own protein food was entirely innocent (what would they think could be better?), but the emphatic (and to the researchers "surprising") difference in oil transport to the larva between syrup and protein feeding has inadvertently thrown up the unfortunate conflict of interest.

 

[Finman]

.
I have nowhere seen that thymol is feeded to bees for varroa. No recommendations say that.

Many trials may be done but there is a difference between reasonable practice and all kind of trials.

Thymol is at last 50 years old beestuff. When I started beekeeping it healed everything. Sulfa was another.


It is added to sugar even iff sugar itself is a preservative which was used as 50% strenght with berries.

No some guys add thymol to 66% sugar. Stupidos...
How you can feed last winterfood to bees if it has thymol. Yes, thyme honey.

 

[itma]

IT HAS NOT! Never seen researches that it has. ... And there is no treamnet which affects under the brood cap.

.
I have nowhere seen that thymol is feeded to bees for varroa. No recommendations say that. ...

Yes, its rather exciting new research, isn't it?

You really should take a look at it.

The Introduction section discusses (and cites) research on these oils, especially Thymol, that they act effectively as a varroacide, but with the limitations of using it as a vapour throughout the colony (like Apiguard).
This paper shows that putting it in feed (especially protein food) can get it into the cell, UNDER the cap, where the mites breed.

Since you had said that no treatment could get under the cap, I'm sure that with your interest in NEW research, you will take a look at it. (Even if it is two years old!)

 

[Finman]

Yes, its rather exciting new research, isn't it?
!)

No.
I am not going to exite. If it comes, it comes. I am going to sleep my nights in peace.

 

[TOBY-3652]

I AM NOW KEEPING A EYE ON MITE DROP[thanks rab] THIS HIVE THAT DROPPED 9000 MITES WAS A NUC THAT I BOUGHT IN APRIL AND BUILT UP VERY VERY SLOWLY IT TRIED TO SWARM WHEN THE BROOD BOX WAS 3 QUARTERS FULL OF BEES AND IT DIDNT PRODUCE MUCH HONEY.. READING ALL INFORMATION NOW I SUSPECT THIS NUC CAME WITH A HEAVY MITE INFESTATION AND BEING MY FIRST YEAR I DIDNT SPOT IT UNTIL THE APIGUARD TREATMENT THE 2 SPLITS THAT I DID WHEN IT TRIED TO SWARM ALSO DROPPED NEARLY 2000 MITES EACH SO KEEP HITTING THEM MITES THE ONLY GOOD MITE IS A DEAD ONE

 

[Finman]

.
It is sure that that hive is mite resistant.

Are you sure that the bees are not chosts?

 

[Suzi Q]

.
It is sure that that hive is mite resistant.

Are you sure that the bees are not chosts?

Is chosts the Finnish word for ghosts?

 

[Finman]

.
How do I know?

I meant kummitus.

 

[For want of a better word]

.
How do I know?

I meant kummitus.

Jatkakaa minun suomalainen ystävä, en ole koskaan oppinut suomea
Ghosts ... figments mielikuvituksen?

Sanon Cheers

 

[For want of a better word]

Kummitus ... that is ghosts in Finnish!

In my much wasted yoof...I could count to ten in Finnish and learned a few useful expletives... my Swedish was better, but now as I am definitely going a bit senile .. even that is going.. as for Welsh!
Diolch!!!

Google TRANSLATE is a Babel-fish for me!! I can do nonsense in multiple lingoes!