Warre moisture (anti-condensation) quilt

[TooBee...]

I'm starting to think that the Warre hive has something big going for it after reading articles like these,
https://honeybeesuite.com/how-to-make-a-moisture-quilt-for-a-langstroth-hive/

I want to reduce the condensation in my hive, especially during winter and I think this would be a good thing to experiment with.

I don't want to add ventilation and freeze my bees (it's almost -10c out there at the minute ), my hive is insulated, but there is very noticeable condensation in the corners, so a Warre type quilt / box sounds good.

Does anyone use one of these? My thinking is that the material needs to be quite absorbent, not like wood chips, and I'll need more than a couple of inches. What's peoples experience with them (or opinion of them?), or how do you deal with winter condensation?

 

[Hunajavelho]

Here in Finland I am wintering with a thin plastic sheet over the frames and styrofoam on that, open mesh floors. Outside -26 celsius.

Cold does not kill, moisture does.

I have tried the warre and it is not good in northern europe.
Does not work well when temps go up and down.

 

[oliver90owner]

Not entirely surprising if, as you state on another post, you don’t have any bottom ventilation. Leave at least some of the OMF open (the clue is in the name, btw) and moisture will find its own way out quite easily. It will condense somewhere if it cannot escape so the corners are the coolest point and it happens there. Do think and keep it simple.

 

[Hivemaker.]

how do you deal with winter condensation?

Insulation, ventilation.

 

[Murox]

Places like Finland are blessed with dry air at temps of minus 20 or thereabouts. I am blessed with damp air at temps of plus 2 or thereabouts when its cold. The semipermeable quilt idea has been around a long time and from my experience worked well on wooden hives in the south east of the UK. I should have thought that appropriate ventilation and insulation would be adequate in a poly hive. As is repeatedly pointed out it is the damp/wet air that causes problems if it condensates above the cluster and drips down on them; some moisture, even running down the inside of the hive may not cause any real problems. Ventilation and insulation are key.

 

[drex]

I have a Warre but mainly run wooden Nationals, which have open mesh floors, left open year round. I see no difference in moisture inside the hives. All nationals have celotex in the roof

 

[Hunajavelho]

Places like Finland are blessed with dry air at temps of minus 20 or thereabouts. I am blessed with damp air at temps of plus 2 or thereabouts when its cold. The semipermeable quilt idea has been around a long time and from my experience worked well on wooden hives in the south east of the UK. I should have thought that appropriate ventilation and insulation would be adequate in a poly hive. As is repeatedly pointed out it is the damp/wet air that causes problems if it condensates above the cluster and drips down on them; some moisture, even running down the inside of the hive may not cause any real problems. Ventilation and insulation are key.

We do not have constant -20c, atleast not here in southern Finland. It can go from +2 c to -10c just over night. The air is very moist until january, then when it. Has been a weak -10 the air gets dry.

 

[user 6228]

Why do you want to stop bees drinking inside the hive?

 

[Finman]

Why do you want to stop bees drinking inside the hive?

How bees can drink inside the hive?

If the hive does not have brood, it does not need drinking water.

If brood hive does not get drinking water inside few days, it stops larva feeding and clean off the existing larvae.

 

[TooBee...]

My understanding (influenced heavily by a Thread I started asking about supplying bees water during winter) was that the bees did not need to collect water during the winter, and obtained what moisture they needed from their stores.

A tree cavity naturally absorbs any condensation on it's inside (up to a point - and I am guessing as a tree can take it away?), so I thought that I could mimic that by using a Warre quilt / box.

Is there any evidence of bees drinking condensation from inside the walls of their hives?

Another Thread I started had to do with the Condensation Hive, but that too wasn't well received, at the time I was perplexed as to how the bees recycled the volume of the air inside the hive, and felt there was more to it than met the eye, from memory Clark, who designed the hive, reasoned that condensation aided the bees, Seeley's research paper overlaps with this line of thinking,
https://www.researchgate.net/public...in_the_Beehive_by_Means_of_Active_Ventilation
"...air changes regulated by the bees, which have a dehumidifying effect for the bee cluster... the relative air humidity of the air surrounding the bee cluster increases and, ideally, is absorbed by the surrounding wood through a process called sorption or conducted outside by means of water vapor diffusion"

DerekM
in the past you've supplied myself and others with fabulous information relating to beehives, if you can point me in the direction of any research (evidence) relating to all this I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[Finman]

.
IT is not long time when Forum discussed about this issue with same words. Real wheel invention.

PS: 2 kg winter food consumption per month produces 1.4 kg water to bee bodies.

 

[Beefriendly]

A tree cavity naturally absorbs any condensation on it's inside (up to a point - and I am guessing as a tree can take it away?), so I thought that I could mimic that by using a Warre quilt / box..

Seeley found that bees lined any tree cavities with propolis, making the whole cavity (except entrance) waterproof.
Bees can only utilise nectar at 50% sugar concentration, so they need water from somewhere to dilute their stores.

 

[user 6228]

A living tree cavity is a water vapour source rather than a sink. As regards them drinking condensation I 've seen them actually doing that in a clear crown board.

 

[oliver90owner]

Bees can only utilise nectar at 50% sugar concentration

Utterly incorrect, in my book. Can you show proof? My proof of the opposite is feeding fondant (about 11% water) to starving bees. Bees do not need huge amounts of water to consume sugar, and as Finny points out, metabolised sugar produces water.

They most certainly require water, with stores, for brooding purposes. Perhaps that is why you are befuddled?

 

[Beefriendly]

Bees can only utilise nectar at 50% sugar concentration

Utterly incorrect, in my book. ?

More twaddle from Olly.

You need to do some basic reading on bee metabolism before you try befuddling accurate comments.
There is a big difference in concentration between what bees will transfer and utilise in their mouth parts and honey crops and what concentration they can metabolise in their stomach and gut.

 

[Finman]

My understanding (influenced heavily by a Thread I started asking about supplying bees water during winter) was that the bees did not need to collect water during the winter, and obtained what moisture they needed from their stores.

Is there any evidence of bees drinking condensation from inside the walls of their hives?

Another Thread I started had to do with the Condensation Hive, but that too wasn't well received, at the time I was perplexed as to how the bees recycled the volume of the air inside the hive, and felt there was more to it than met the eye, from memory Clark, who designed the hive, reasoned that condensation aided the bees, Seeley's research paper overlaps with this line of thinking,
https://www.researchgate.net/public...in_the_Beehive_by_Means_of_Active_Ventilation
"...air changes regulated by the bees, which have a dehumidifying effect for the bee cluster... it.

This research do not support your wintering studies because it has been done in October. Even trees have leaves then.
Bees get drinking water from soil, when needed.

Probably brood in hives.
I did not see text about moisture condensation.

.

 

[Finman]

I'm starting to think that the Warre hive has something big going for it after reading articles like these,
https://honeybeesuite.com/how-to-make-a-moisture-quilt-for-a-langstroth-hive/

I want to reduce the condensation in my hive, especially during winter and I think this would be a good thing to experiment with.

I don't want to add ventilation and freeze my bees (it's almost -10c out there at the minute ), my hive is insulated, but there is very noticeable condensation in the corners, so a Warre type quilt / box sounds good.

Does anyone use one of these? My thinking is that the material needs to be quite absorbent, not like wood chips, and I'll need more than a couple of inches. What's peoples experience with them (or opinion of them?), or how do you deal with winter condensation?

BeeToo read Canadian article, when the author wants to reduce condensation in the Langstroth hive. So BeeToo decided to reduce his hive condentation during winter in warre hive.

 

[TooBee...]

A living tree cavity is a water vapour source rather than a sink. As regards them drinking condensation I 've seen them actually doing that in a clear crown board.

Hi
You're saying that the tree cavity acts as "a water vapour source rather than a sink" (I think you mean it adds moisture??), but Tautz (I previously mistakenly attributed the article to Seeley) states that it is a 'sink', here is the paragraph that I am referring to (Finman here is the "text about moisture condensation") - italics added by me for contextual clarity;

"This behavior (a special be dance, previously described) actively conveys humidity ... the humidity is then absorbed by the surrounding wood ... transported outside through the wood by means of water vapor diffusion or, in a worst-case scenario, it condenses on the structural components of the dwelling and runs off towards the bottom" page 7, last paragraph.

I've taken on board what you've said about the bees coating the walls with propolis, Seeley confirms this in "The nest of the honey bee" in which he says "In finished nests the propolis layer was thick and completely covered a nest cavity's floor, walls and ceiling to form the propolis envelope", which means Tautz may have jumped the gun in his conclusion (assumptions) about where the excess water goes.

IF Tautz is wrong in his assumptions (they weren't observed, and no evidence is presented for them) of where the water goes, and Seeley is correct (based on observations and therefore evidence), then you appear to be correct in your (implied) assertion that condensation in a hive is not as much of a problem as I initially feared - or at least it's normal (it should be remembered that a tree cavity's roof is curved, so condensing water runs away from the centre).

But it raises the question (which Tautz felt he had to address) of where does this excess moisture / condensed water go to, could it result in a very damp bottomed hive, even a small puddle, that doesn't sound right: presumably at the bottom of the tree cavity the condensed water would soak away? How permeable is Propolis?

 

[admanga]

Randy Oliver describes how the top of a hive is sealed with propolis (probably knowledge from Seeley's work), and its beneficial if top cover is insulated rather than breathable, and he discusses how bees produce and use moisture, benefiting from the energy gained in the process, and possibly even start brood rearing in winter to use excess moisture. A lot to think about in this video:


(sorry for duplicating from a different thread, but this seems also a good place)

 

[fian]

Not entirely surprising if, as you state on another post, you don’t have any bottom ventilation. Leave at least some of the OMF open (the clue is in the name, btw) and moisture will find its own way out quite easily. It will condense somewhere if it cannot escape so the corners are the coolest point and it happens there. Do think and keep it simple.

Suggestion:
In each corner place a wire from top to bottom, the humidity will condense on the wire, and gravity will do the rest, moving excess water to the bottom.