Warre - feeding dilemma

[boywonder]

Well... Not so much a dilemma; more me entering squeaky bum territory, and curious as to what others think/would do.

I am entering season 3 with this colony (of lovely black bees from a swarm capture). They fly at insanely low temperatures, and have been by far the busiest of my 20ish colonies so far this year.

When I started with the Warre, I resolved never to feed (and equally, never to remove honey unless clearly in surplus - which I have not yet done), and to man-up and try to go treatment free... though I have not achieved the latter, having put 1 MAQS strip on in Autumn to knock mites down.

So.... This weekend, I got them off the Chep pallet, and onto a new brick plinth (they're at the top of the garden, and I'm trying to get on top of it slowly)...



In lifting them... well, it became apparent they are featherlight. Indeed, if they were one of my 'standard' colonies, I'd have been panicking, and rushing for the fondant.

Hmmmm.

The 'hands-off' part of me truly believes they'll be fine (other things being equal, nature can't fail to ensure they are adequately provisioned, surely) ??.... That said, if we got the supposed Beast from the East, I am certain they would starve.

Curious to see how it turns out. What would you do??

 

[Erichalfbee]

Feed them

 

[blackcloud]

Apologies for the unhelpfulness but the plinth is a work of art.
It does resemble a capped chimney though - reminiscent of the closing scene in Planet of the Apes

I would forget the protocols ,principals and religions and make sure they were properly stocked up with feed.

 

[boywonder]

Feed them

Interesting, and unequivocal.

With my 'standard' colonies, it's not quite that I see feeding as an admission of failure, but I do see it as a conscious human intervention to deal with:

• The fact that I've quite possibly harvested more than I should have
• A level of risk aversion (i.e. making as sure as I humanly can that they are, if anything, over-provisioned for the winter)

I also know some who do feed their Warre bees.

However, that's a bit contrary to the model of sustainable beekeeping I am aspiring to here.

People don't go round feeding feral colonies, do they?... And the majority of those (in the absence of unwelcome stressors) probably survive a winter. Given that I took no crop, all things being equal (i.e. low/no nosema, no viral problems, no varrooisis etc.) and with a sound home, should I not expect them to be able to get through of their own accord??

I guess time will tell.

 

[user 20297]

Well... Not so much a dilemma; more me entering squeaky bum territory, and curious as to what others think/would do.

I am entering season 3 with this colony (of lovely black bees from a swarm capture). They fly at insanely low temperatures, and have been by far the busiest of my 20ish colonies so far this year.

When I started with the Warre, I resolved never to feed (and equally, never to remove honey unless clearly in surplus - which I have not yet done), and to man-up and try to go treatment free... though I have not achieved the latter, having put 1 MAQS strip on in Autumn to knock mites down.

So.... This weekend, I got them off the Chep pallet, and onto a new brick plinth (they're at the top of the garden, and I'm trying to get on top of it slowly)...

View attachment 35339

In lifting them... well, it became apparent they are featherlight. Indeed, if they were one of my 'standard' colonies, I'd have been panicking, and rushing for the fondant.

Hmmmm.

The 'hands-off' part of me truly believes they'll be fine (other things being equal, nature can't fail to ensure they are adequately provisioned, surely) ??.... That said, if we got the supposed Beast from the East, I am certain they would starve.

Curious to see how it turns out. What would you do??

That's a lovely setup and I admire and share your good intentions. But I would definitely chicken-out and give them fondant in those circumstances.

 

[boywonder]

It does resemble a capped chimney though - reminiscent of the closing scene in Planet of the Apes

... It will look less chimney-like once I have back-filled and there are grasses and wildflowers growing around it ....... I hope !

 

[boywonder]

That's a lovely setup and I admire and share your good intentions. But I would definitely chicken-out and give them fondant in those circumstances.

Thanks - appreciate the advice

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

People don't go round feeding feral colonies, do they?... And the majority of those (in the absence of unwelcome stressors) probably survive a winter

wrong - the majority of them die

 

[boywonder]

wrong - the majority of them die

JBM, you may be right. You may also not be. I'd love to see some real stats on feral / survivor colonies.

The ones I know about around here seem to persist. I don't buy the argument that that's just a case of new swarms moving into cavities previously occupied by deceased colonies.

 

[Ian123]

You’ve already intervened putting them in a hive you’re a beekeeper, so feed them and keep bees!!! Nature however much some want to believe is not all fluffy and it kills. Often far more effectively than us mere humans.
On a more positive note……..if they are as light as you suggest fondant may not be enough. In emergency you can fill a drawn frame or frames with warm syrup and place in or next to the cluster. You could also add a contact feeder with warm/hot syrup directly above the cluster then packing with insulation around. They may not take it though if it gets cold so little and often or probably better be prepared to warm up the bucket.
I also very much doubt they need 3 boxes you’d be better condensing them and ensuring they are in contact with the food.
There is nothing special about a Warre hive and it certainly doesn’t impart any special fairy dust, I don’t think there is any Warre method that can’t be done in an ordinary box!

 

[boywonder]

I also very much doubt they need 3 boxes you’d be better condensing them and ensuring they are in contact with the food.

Agreed. Ideally, I'd have sent them into winter on 2 boxes. However, this time around (in Autumn) the top box was rammed with stores, and the brood nest was still extending into the bottom of the three boxes. Clearly at this point, that's not going to be the case, so I think yes, I will condense to 2 boxes. Good idea.

Thanks for the ideas re. feeding. Stuff to chew over - certainly.

 

[user 20297]

Agreed. Ideally, I'd have sent them into winter on 2 boxes. However, this time around (in Autumn) the top box was rammed with stores, and the brood nest was still extending into the bottom of the three boxes. Clearly at this point, that's not going to be the case, so I think yes, I will condense to 2 boxes. Good idea.

Thanks for the ideas re. feeding. Stuff to chew over - certainly.

Wouldn't it make Warre-sense to leave the bottom box where it is?

 

[Ian123]

Wouldn't it make Warre-sense to leave the bottom box where it is?

The bees are probably not in the bottom box!
This study shows a 40% survival
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220216103021.htm

 

[user 20297]

The bees are probably not in the bottom box!
This study shows a 40% survival
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220216103021.htm

I realise that the bees are higher up and out of that box, but I am not sure what is gained by removing it....presumably I will know after a quick read?

 

[Swarm]

Interesting, and unequivocal.

With my 'standard' colonies, it's not quite that I see feeding as an admission of failure, but I do see it as a conscious human intervention to deal with:

• The fact that I've quite possibly harvested more than I should have
• A level of risk aversion (i.e. making as sure as I humanly can that they are, if anything, over-provisioned for the winter)

I also know some who do feed their Warre bees.

However, that's a bit contrary to the model of sustainable beekeeping I am aspiring to here.

People don't go round feeding feral colonies, do they?... And the majority of those (in the absence of unwelcome stressors) probably survive a winter. Given that I took no crop, all things being equal (i.e. low/no nosema, no viral problems, no varrooisis etc.) and with a sound home, should I not expect them to be able to get through of their own accord??

I guess time will tell.

Given that you took no honey from them, I would trust the bees to know what they are doing. If you take their honey, as most do, you have a duty to make sure they have enough stores.

 

[Ian123]

I realise that the bees are higher up and out of that box, but I am not sure what is gained by removing it....presumably I will know after a quick read?

I never suggested just removing the bottom box alone although that’s likely to be the easy bit. If the bees are out the bottom but not up to the feed hole then you can stick as much food on as you like and they won’t reach it. It will need to literally be in contact with them…… so yes it’s a reasonable idea/procedure.

 

[Sutty]

Given that most wild colonies will swarm at least once a year, and feral colonies aren't expanding dramatically, at least 50% dont make it.
I'd definitely feed them.
Dead-outs aren't "sustainable".

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

JBM, you may be right. You may also not be. I'd love to see some real stats on feral / survivor colonies

read Seeley then. Id prefer to believe his findings than listen to some of the nonsense spouted by certain cuckoos on here

 

[user 20297]

I realise that the bees are higher up and out of that box, but I am not sure what is gained by removing it....presumably I will know after a quick read?

From my quick read of that quasi-scientific study I learned nothing to indicate that pulling out an empty box from below two in a stack makes any difference to survival.
But the study actually supports the claim that wild bees survive independently os feral escapees. The wild bees found inside those poles were identified as Apis mellifera iberiensis, which it says is the native sub-species of that part of Spain. This is despite the fact that Carnica bees are overwhelmingly the beekeepers' choice over there. The study postulates that there may have been a continuous native population of bees from antiquity and throughout the era of modern beekeeping.

This supports the suggestion made by @boywonder at least as much as it backs up the claim that wild bees are not very successful at overwintering.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There is nothing special about a Warre hive and it certainly doesn’t impart any special fairy dust

I read of a learned, skilled and respected beekeeper some years ago, when asked his opinion on Warree said (and this is a paraphrase as I cannot remember where I read it to dig it out)
'Nice bloke - knows bugger all about bees though' (that may even not be a paraphrase!!)