Vids about Varroa.

[MJBee]

I only have 10 colonies, WHEN I reach 100 and IF I can afford to buy an island I MIGHT give non treatment a try. Until then I will treat as necessary

 

[Chris Luck]

You lot do like slagging anyone that succeeds without prating around with artificial treatments, but so far no one on here has explained why my bees are OK with only OMF and icing sugar, year on year on year.

Why not just admit that you look to blame someone else rather than seeing what else may be wrong, could even be something you are doing. Who knows?

Reservoir of infection my aunt fanny.

Chris, Oddball now as well as Bee watcher apparently.

 

[Stiffy]

so far no one on here has explained why my bees are OK with only OMF and icing sugar, year on year on year.

Well, I am sure everyone on here will be interested in the 'magical powers' your bees have over the rest, is it something in the icing sugar ?

If you dont know and its just a coincidence then I would be inclined to think that you have been very lucky, even if your bees are having to suffer the consequnces of parasites from your inaction.

And the next hymn for tonight is 'onwards christian soldiers'

Cheers
S

 

[Skyhook]

"childhood vaccination schemes aim to prevent epidemics by virtue of herd immunity (ie too many kids immune to reach critical mass for mass transmission). In the reverse situation the more infected cases there are the more likely it is to contract the disease if not immune.

I think this is a little different. one can't talk about herd immunity against varroa if every colony is infected. The number of mites transmitted between apiaries can surely only be small, eg via a few drones sleeping over. If your hives are varroa free (eg hedgerow pete) and a few drones stop the night, you are re-infected. But if each of your hives has, say, 200 mites, and drones deliver a few more, that is unlikely to transform the situation.

 

[Chris Luck]

Of course another possibility is that you've got it wrong Stiffy and I've got it right, but let's not put an end to your games..you'd have nothing left to talk about if all was well and there was really nothing complicated about keeping bees.

OBTW. I don't do religion so I can't join in with your hymns.

Chris

 

[Mike a]

Well, I am sure everyone on here will be interested in the 'magical powers' your bees have over the rest, is it something in the icing sugar ?

Magical powers? very doubtful

May be Chris just has hygienic bees compared to yours?
I wonder how the other beek feels about you keeping your bees near his Stiffy.

 

[Repwoc]

The way I understand it (which means it's probably wrong), selection for resistance to a disease largely works by the non-resistant stocks being killed by the pathogen. This process eliminates the non-resistant dna from future generations leaving the resistant stocks to propagate the resistant dna. The same process repeated over lots of generations eventually leads to elimination of non-resistant dna in the whole population.

I don't think that bees can learn to be hygienic and then pass this knowledge on to others, so if we want to have bees that are naturally resistant to varroa mites, we will all have to stop treating them and just let most (and hope it's not all) of our colonies die. It's no good if just a few beeks take the plunge - in order for varroa resistance to build up in the general bee population, most colonies must be allowed to die.

BTW I'm not a proponent of this approach - it's just a view of the situation. The economic cost of mass non-treatment would be disasterous, both to beeks and farmers. Going by the fate of our feral colonies, I would say that there would be very few honey bee colonies surviving after a few years of non-treatment.

I believe there is a current project at a Welsh university with the aim of studying varroa resistance in long established feral colonies. Surely properly designed scientific studies like this are the way to go, instead of a handful of isolated beeks just deciding unilaterally to not treat and potentially (if not actually) becoming a nuisance to other local colonies.

 

[Stiffy]

Of course another possibility is that you've got it wrong Stiffy and I've got it right, but let's not put an end to your games..you'd have nothing left to talk about if all was well and there was really nothing complicated about keeping bees.

OBTW. I don't do religion so I can't join in with your hymns.

Chris

Yep quite prepared to be wrong but in the meantime please tell us all why you are so right with your approach, this is surely what the forum is about, sharing information? As you cant give a positive response to the question on how (apart from like 'dusting' a sponge cake) your bees are surviving without being treated, I will take it that you dont know?

Not sure what you mean by games, I dont see the care of my bees as a "game", as my posts have surely exposed I take them very seriuosly. BTW my bees are doing fine and I (tempting fate) have taken 100% through the winter/s but am always willing to learn of new methods and ways of keeping them. What I will not entertain though are people who expound methods that in the end just point to them leaving their livestock in a state of perpetual distress!



OBTW I am not religious either but if you would care to read all the postings instead of cherry picking, the 'hymns' are in response to anothee post and was meant to be taken in a light hearted way. Maybe you need to treat other aspects as well?


Have fun
S

 

[drstitson]

Chris Luck

the approach of "leaving the bees to sort themselves out" is as far removed from "OMF and icing sugar" as is more active treatment.

The hands off person presumably also just puts a stack of supers on in spring and takes them off in summer.

aside from varroa reservoir issues this also means that local drone populations are probably being enriched for characteristics that many diligent beeks are actively aiming to avoid eg swarming, aggressiveness, following etc.

 

[Dishmop]

Yep quite prepared to be wrong but in the meantime please tell us all why you are so right with your approach, this is surely what the forum is about, sharing information? As you cant give a positive response to the question on how (apart from like 'dusting' a sponge cake) your bees are surviving without being treated, I will take it that you dont know?

Stiify, have you considered that the reason he doesnt treat his bees is because....... his bees dont have varroa........

How many beeks just bung all the chemicals in the hive because they have been led to believe that that is what one is supposed to do......

like I asked in another thread, where do these mites hide so well that I havent seen any on visual inspections........... but I still dont know because nobody answered.....

 

[RoofTops]

There seem to be two appraoches to keeping bees without chemical treatment for varroa:

The first is the method sometimes called "Natural Beekeeping" part of which is to allow the bees to swarm naturally. I believe the break in brood rearing this causes keeps the varroa populations in check. I suspect the first video covers this type of beekeeping although my attention span collapsed when he mentioned "Karma".

The second is the live and let die approach which seems to work for some. An alternative interpretation of why this method may work is because it is not the bees which are being selected but the varroa. It would only take a slight reduction in the breeding rate of varroa for their population not to overwhelm the colony. This is one explanation why programmes to create a "varroa resistant bee", which have been going on for the odd decade now have not produced a strain of bee* which can be marketed. It is not the bees which should be sold but their varroa.

* I know there is a Russian bee in the US which is supposed to have all the right qualities but it cannot be imported into this country so it will remain a mystery for now.

 

[Storm™]

I'm new, Also have no bees. To forestall a "perhaps when you are more experienced you can comment" comment, dont. Ok.

This detritus attitude in forums is more endemic than the bloody verroa. Pompous accents and superior judgement of others in a "learning forum" is neither helpful nor pleasant to watch. Debate is an excited "ooooooooooo how are you doing that please share". Condemnation of those who wish to share is stupid. Dishmop was sharing info. Thats all. You say why you would not do it and leave it at that. Without the snooty clicky attitude. Makes you sick.

Thank you Dishmop for sharing and broadening the knowledge base and giving others "options"

I came here to learn, all I have learnt is people are people the world over. Unpleasant attacking and superior. And Dr Stitson histopathologist with letters - when it comes to medical knowledge that YOU use to this day as well as your colleagues that has been a rocky road of balls ups and guesswork and lucky finds. So please bare that in mind when taking the moral high ground. These are bees and to me as an "Oddball" no doubt, (pagan, sorry not Christian as if that would make sense herding like sheep after a pissin adventure novel) they are sacred. But medical research has its origins in the murdering of Jews, the feeding of American prisoners on death row experimental drugs and a plethora of other examples (animal experimentation for the betterment of man) so please take a second to think before you condemn.

If your treatment was so great the mite would be gone. Except nature always finds a way. And so will the bees with or without our help. How ever did they cope without us one wonders. Poor things.

Sorry everyone but I hate to see everyone being so awful to one another. Like a load of old fishwives bitching.

 

[drstitson]

response

I'm not advocating blindly tipping assorted bucketfuls of toxic synthetic chemicals over all our bees.

As a newcomer i am following discussions avidly and following advice of established beeks.

However, given that my UK hive is sited in the local club apiary where policy is to treat AND my italian hives are situated within range of several commercial apiaries then it is only simple courtesy to follow suit, at least for my first full year!

Bees are exposed to thymol and related natural compounds on a daily basis when foraging and eating stores.

I will happily accept the results of proper controlled trials of various treatments /management methods for the control of varroa provided they have been carried out with adequate regard to surrounding colonies (both to reduce spread of mites and potentially harmful treatment substances). We accept exclusion zones around GM crop trials so similar could be arranged for bee work.

 

[drstitson]

"like I asked in another thread, where do these mites hide so well that I havent seen any on visual inspections........... but I still dont know because nobody answered....."

It is very difficult to see the mite on the adult bee as it lives in the
intersegmental region of the lower abdomen. As it breeds in the sealed cell it cannot be seen unless the cell is opened and the contents examined.

Also, assuming we have 1000 mites at the colony peak in summer that's only 1 per 50 bees if they are all out on bees rather than in brood. also given that they tend to stay with their host bee until entering cells and that there are between 1 and 5 females produced per cell then you could be talking 1 in 250 bees with a heavy burden (less if you allow for mites in cells) and the rest clear.

 

[drstitson]

Storm

i thoroughly accept that YOU can take the moral high ground as you are not a beekeeper!

Please realise that modern beekeeping is basically a victorian industrial process where we force the bees to work for us and modify their behaviour to suit.

we (mostly) all aim to treat our bees with the respect they deserve (and I personally would wholeheartedly support any RSPCA actions brought against irresponsible beeks who knowingly starved their charges by removing all their stores and not feeding).

Are you a militant vegetarian/vegan??? if so i hope you don't eat honey or use beeswax to shine your hemp shoes as, like it or not, some bees do get harmed/killed in the process of modern apiculture (squashed under crown boards, drowned in feed, drone larvae sacrificed etc.)

Not much different to the dairy/veal industry really!!!!

 

[Storm™]

i thoroughly accept that YOU can take the moral high ground as you are not a beekeeper!

No i'm not but neither can I take a moral high ground nor want to. I can however point out the obvious though re: animal experimentation/human experimentation which founded the medical knowledge we use today, you use today. And therefore I think its a bit rich when someone suggests a possible alternative to using chemicals and is mocked ("oddballs") and lambasted by you and others for not following prescribed dogma, when your professions ability is founded on experimentation of higher lifeforms than the bee.

Please realise that modern beekeeping is basically a victorian industrial process where we force the bees to work for us and modify their behaviour to suit.

Of course. I realise that. Pagan not backwards *****.

Are you a militant vegetarian/vegan??? if so i hope you don't eat honey or use beeswax to shine your hemp shoes as, like it or not, some bees do get harmed/killed in the process of modern apiculture (squashed under crown boards, drowned in feed, drone larvae sacrificed etc.)

So many things I could say here but there would be little point in adding further confusion/fuel to your muddled, broad sweeping, mocking statement. Its beneath me.

Not much different to the dairy/veal industry really!!!!

oh good.

Anyhow quick lesson for you. For me paganism is working with nature not tip toeing round it. Hardly - "pretty birds, hello sky, hello trees, hello clouds" (your assumption but not fact). But always keep a balance. If I am able to keep bees and there is an alternative to using chemicals, that works, I will try it. If it fails I will use chemicals. Which are after all only chemicals from nature at their source. But I will use all available options. As would a Dr as long as, in the end, it worked. I would not mock, dismantle, or lambaste anything/anyone until it was proven NOT to work. And "proven" is not you. Its credibility of those that have done it and can show it. And that goes for anything in our lives, not just beekeeping. And credibility is earned not demanded.

If you wish to reply to this I would ask you PM it to save this thread deteriorating further and to save others having to sit through it.

 

[Dishmop]

It is very difficult to see the mite on the adult bee as it lives in the
intersegmental region of the lower abdomen. As it breeds in the sealed cell it cannot be seen unless the cell is opened and the contents examined.

No disrepect to the Doc but,

help me here because I am having a bit of difficulty inderstanding the above.

A mite which is approx 2mm long can hide in the intersegmantal section and you cant see it?

All the pics that I can google show the mite crawling on the back of the bee behind the head.....and easily seen.
Having an observation hive I can see my bees very up close and have watched many "emerging" from thier cells.... and they are then groomed, either with seconds or they will walk about waggling until one or more bees climb onto them and clean around their wings and waist....

During the day a lot of bees will hang onto the glass, but in the evening they are nearly all facing the comb....This has given me a good many opportunities to examine all over my bees and I can see no creepy crawlies........
Bees sleep/rest with their legs stretched out which gives a good view of the underside if they are on the glass.

 

[Repwoc]

Dishmop - please clarify - do you think your bees are free of varroa, or do you think you just can't see them?

 

[drstitson]

varroa info

all the advice seems to imply: "Varroa can reach high population levels in a honey bee colony even though few mites are visible on the adult bees" (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gandboss/BeeginnersFAQ/Problems/control-of-varroa-guide.pdf)

original info gleaned from:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~msbain/elbka/Varroa destructor.pdf

However from an (old) paper from liverpool Uni: (ttp://www.lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/pdf/Martin%2058.pdf)

"The distribution of Varroa jacobsoni on clustered, overwintering workers of Apis mellifera was investigated. The majority of mites were found between the 3rd and 4th ventro-lateral tergites of the abdomen with a signi®cant preference for the left side of the host. This position would enable the mites to place their mouthparts in close proximity to the central portion of the bees' ventriculus. This may allow the mites access to nutrients at higher concentrations than would occur elsewhere in the haemolymph."

 

[Dishmop]

Dishmop - please clarify - do you think your bees are free of varroa, or do you think you just can't see them?

Well, because I cant see them I would like to think that I am varroa free... but.. is this likely due to the fact that 99% of other forum members seem to be infested with varroa.. or at least of the opinion that they are.

I dont think I cant see them,,,, I know I cant see them...

One thing that I havent as yet seen on here is somebody with a photo of a frame of thier bees asking "is this varroa?"

People ask why are bees walking away from their hive and get told, "they have varroa. Treat the hive" The ones that walk away from my hives are drones.... or they're walking about trying to get dry because they missed the board and landed in wet grass.

Last week, "whats this yellow streak on my hive and the yellow powder" Answer "they're ill, Treat them" Powder poo?

Bees with damaged wings..... "Varroa, Treat them". I have watched bees fighting and nibbling at wings of bees that then get chucked off the landing board.