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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLPEx8g3s28"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLPEx8g3s28[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU0DBZgf4_s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU0DBZgf4_s[/ame]
 

Storm™ 

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Brilliant Vids Dishmop,

My friends who have their own beekeeping business here are using that method described in the second vid. They used to dose and chemical treat and all sorts and would loose hives regularly. Now they have stabilised their colonies and do not treat and touch wax, they have not lost a colony since. One of them is very eccentric but ferociously passionate about her bee health and bee welfare and this is what led them to try this way of beekeeping.

I have also been reading these articles of late which have further info.

http://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/193000919015273697/CCDProgressReport2009.pdf

from this discussion:

http://www.************/forum/viewtopic.php?p=35088

and also this article by I think Laura Weldon:

http://www.naturalnews.com/028054_honeybees_colony_collapse_disorder.html
 

Stiffy 

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Here we go again and I'm daft enough to take the bait.


I have 3 apiary sites in Cornwall, one close to one of the 'let them alone and sort themselves out ' brigade.

Two of my sites this August had an average mite fall in September of 20-30 mites a day

One site had an average mite fall of 200-300 a day.......guess which one was close to you know who?

Also I have a dog that is bites the fleas of his back should I stop treating him as he is obviously 'flea resistant’?

Cheers
S
 

Stiffy 

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Dogs have had fleas a lot longer than bees have had varroa and they still cant cope.

Just open a hive riddled with varroa a see the damage it does to the bees, if that were a dog or cat the owner would be in court.


Cheers
S
 
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Doh - poor bees...
 

Storm™ 

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Dogs have had fleas a lot longer than bees have had varroa and they still cant cope.

Just open a hive riddled with varroa a see the damage it does to the bees, if that were a dog or cat the owner would be in court.


Cheers
S
I understand its a serious problem. I also have not made up my mind what I will do when the time comes. I have the welfare of the bee at heart first and foremost. But I also know that man is a fiddler. He tweeks and pokes where nothing did so before. And then he becomes the controller. And when he gets bored of that or circumstance removes him from the equation it all goes back to sorting itself out again eventually unless he kills it.

I do not think you can dismiss the potential for it to work out of hand.
 

Mike a 

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Here we go again and I'm daft enough to take the bait.
I have 3 apiary sites in Cornwall, one close to one of the 'let them alone and sort themselves out ' brigade.
Two of my sites this August had an average mite fall in September of 20-30 mites a day
One site had an average mite fall of 200-300 a day.......guess which one was close to you know who?
Also I have a dog that is bites the fleas of his back should I stop treating him as he is obviously 'flea resistant’?
Come on Stiffy seriously?
Are you honestly trying blame on another bee keeper for varroa levels in your hives...:smilielol5:

If you apply your logic for your dog may be you should blame your vet for your dogs flees or every ones elses dogs in your local area.?

Its very simple your hives your problem if the drop rate is high..

:seeya:
 

Stiffy 

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I understand its a serious problem. I also have not made up my mind what I will do when the time comes. I have the welfare of the bee at heart first and foremost. But I also know that man is a fiddler. He tweeks and pokes where nothing did so before. And then he becomes the controller. And when he gets bored of that or circumstance removes him from the equation it all goes back to sorting itself out again eventually unless he kills it.

I do not think you can dismiss the potential for it to work out of hand.
I don’t mind how people keep their bees but do object if it affects people around them and they then start 'preaching' that their method is best.

Obviously I would rather not treat my bees but I would also rather not take aspirin or penicillin when ill.

Until someone convinces me otherwise I will continue to treat and do the ‘best’ for my bees and keep them as healthy as possible.

However, I will not subject them to having deformed wings and other body parts just to be able to say (and wrongly IMHO) they are not subject to chemicals.
Cheers
S

PS I note you don’t have bees yet, do you have a source in mind or are you going to wait for a swarm?
 

Storm™ 

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Yeah no bees yet. I always have wanted to be a beekeeper but circumstance then money always got in the way. Things have changed and so I can now explore it as a hobby. If it works out and I work out, I may expand. As for a source I wanted to wait for a swarm or collect one. But again we will see. I have a lot to learn about it yet. And a new house to find. But beekeping is now firmly on the cards.

PM sent
 
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drstitson 

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Herd immunity

"Are you honestly trying blame on another bee keeper for varroa levels in your hives"

Of course he is.

think about it.

childhood vaccination schemes aim to prevent epidemics by virtue of herd immunity (ie too many kids immune to reach critical mass for mass transmission). In the reverse situation the more infected cases there are the more likely it is to contract the disease if not immune.

or to put it another way,

imagine a farmer who diligently culls every badger on his land to reduce TB in his cattle then finds that a neighbour is not or worse still is establishing badger havens.

would you have the same stance re the notifiable bee diseases????
 
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If a person isnt treating because his bees havent got varroa..... he cant then be infecting other keepers bees......... can he?
 

drstitson 

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The original quote was that the bees were being left to sort themselves out.

That is NOT the same as not needing treatment.
 
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all the same you cant accuse somebody of passing varroa onto your bees because a nearby keeper hasnt treated his,,, you dont know why he hasnt treated them....
 

drstitson 

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i agree you can't accuse an individual in this case BUT lack of common sense and decency shouldn't be condoned.

we the majority are all worrying about counts, whether or colonies will survive to spring etc and spending hard earned cash to treat our bees whilst oddballs are happily hosting mite distribution centres!!!!

Varroa is in many respects least of our problems - what else is he brewing up in those colonies!!!!

Would we also condone those drivers who drive without licence, tax, MOT and insurance as those minor irritants can also be left "to sort themselves out"!!!!
 

Storm™ 

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i agree you can't accuse an individual in this case BUT lack of common sense and decency shouldn't be condoned.

we the majority are all worrying about counts, whether or colonies will survive to spring etc and spending hard earned cash to treat our bees whilst oddballs are happily hosting mite distribution centres!!!!

Varroa is in many respects least of our problems - what else is he brewing up in those colonies!!!!

Would we also condone those drivers who drive without licence, tax, MOT and insurance as those minor irritants can also be left "to sort themselves out"!!!!
Oddballs? I know quite a few oddball Dr's. I would not right them off because of it though.
 

Mike a 

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i agree you can't accuse an individual in this case BUT lack of common sense and decency shouldn't be condoned.

we the majority are all worrying about counts, whether or colonies will survive to spring etc and spending hard earned cash to treat our bees whilst oddballs are happily hosting mite distribution centres!!!!

Varroa is in many respects least of our problems - what else is he brewing up in those colonies!!!!

Would we also condone those drivers who drive without licence, tax, MOT and insurance as those minor irritants can also be left "to sort themselves out"!!!!
Oddballs - Well it only takes one oddball to come up with a solution or answer. Remember the world was once flat and every thing revolved around the earth.

I'm just as guilty as most others using chemicals but the only way to find a solution is having the courage to put conventional chemical methods to one side and find another way it may take years and heavy losses but if it leads to an answer it would be worth it.

In the mean time far too many people want to jump on the band wagon by labelling people and blaming others for their own misfortunes or problems. Can we have another show of hands from those who have really suffered with CCD?
 
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Stiffy 

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Oddballs - Well it only takes one oddball to come up with a solution or answer. Remember the world was once flat and every thing revolved around the earth.

I'm just as guilty as most others using chemicals but the only way to find a solution is having the courage to put conventional chemical methods to one side and find another way it may take years and heavy losses but if it leads to an answer it would be worth it.

In the mean time far too many people want to jump on the band wagon by labelling people and blaming others for their own misfortunes or problems. Can we have another show of hands from those who have really suffered with CCD?

I have not blamed anyone for my misfortunes or problems, just pointed out a fact. The hives near the non intervention area have a higher varroa count than ones away from it despite being kept in an identical fashion. I just need to be extra vigilant with this apiary and will probably have to use additional methods to keep the counts low.

I don’t care how the other hives are kept but it is galling to hear people saying they are on higher ground because of their laziness and let’s face that’s what it is in most cases, to care for their livestock.

I would also be surprised if there are very many people who could actually claim to have suffered from CCD in this country? Most just lose hives through lack of food and pests during the winter and is not CCD.
 

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I have not blamed anyone for my misfortunes or problems
Stiffy, you haven't had any mis-fortune or problems above that of any other beek who responsibly inspects and reacts to threats to their colonies by using accepted best (and recomended) husbandry practice. You simply have a known threat that you are dealing with. The person with the long term misfortune and problem is likely to be the "I will leave them to it" brigade, what jars me off is if that impacts on wider honey bee viability in the UK.

Treatment is not the long term answer either, not while there is evidence of resistance building up in the varroa population; but anyone claiming that 'non treatment' is a calculated way to help bees 'discover' resistance or 'tollerance' which is then passively spread through the wider population is a coupon short of a toaster (if you dont intervene you cant be monitoring the impact of a non-treatment approach - so it not a strategy!). Hopefully a robust and sustainable solution will be found but neither non-treat nor treat will deliver it. At least treatment means those bees (my bees) will have a higher probability of still being around to benefit from the answer when it comes.

It is anyones right to mange their bees in the way that is consistent with their beliefs and values but I can not reconcile that approach with protecting the investment that they must have made in equipment and stock and acting responsibly to minimise pest/threat proliferation for the good of all.

We will now sing hymn no 48 "All things bright and beaautiful" ... (surmon over)
 

Stiffy 

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Stiffy, you haven't had any mis-fortune or problems above that of any other beek who responsibly inspects and reacts to threats to their colonies by using accepted best (and recomended) husbandry practice. You simply have a known threat that you are dealing with. The person with the long term misfortune and problem is likely to be the "I will leave them to it" brigade, what jars me off is if that impacts on wider honey bee viability in the UK.

Treatment is not the long term answer either, not while there is evidence of resistance building up in the varroa population; but anyone claiming that 'non treatment' is a calculated way to help bees 'discover' resistance or 'tollerance' which is then passively spread through the wider population is a coupon short of a toaster (if you dont intervene you cant be monitoring the impact of a non-treatment approach - so it not a strategy!). Hopefully a robust and sustainable solution will be found but neither non-treat nor treat will deliver it. At least treatment means those bees (my bees) will have a higher probability of still being around to benefit from the answer when it comes.

It is anyones right to mange their bees in the way that is consistent with their beliefs and values but I can not reconcile that approach with protecting the investment that they must have made in equipment and stock and acting responsibly to minimise pest/threat proliferation for the good of all.

We will now sing hymn no 48 "All things bright and beaautiful" ... (surmon over)
No argument from me.....I was just pointing out the need to treat and the potential implications from those who for whatever reason think they dont need to.

Hymn for this evening 'fight the good fight with all your mi........' :redface:
 
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