Very weak hive

[Bungle]

Hi everyone,

Exciting time of the year

I went into the winter with two fairly strong hives. I nadiered one of them, and fed the other what i thought was enough syrup - over 3 weeks.

Both hives survived the winter and i've seen both queens.

However, the nadiered hive is very strong already (as i hoped) and more than half the frames are completely filled to the edges with an even brood. The entrance is very busy and there are stores on the outer frames. I've just added a super to this hive and they've started cleaning the frames. Great!

But the other hive is extremely weak - perhaps i did not feed them enough? I inspected today and the queen is busy walking around, but there is very little brood/larvae and a low population - less than there was 10 days ago. I would say the nucleus is about 4inches in diameter over three frames. Some of the stores have crystallised honey in them.

I'm not sure how to help this hive. I've read that its not worth taking resources from the strong hive to help a failing one, but if i do nothing i cant see them lasting much longer.

Is it worth moving them into a nuc box (currently in a 14x12 brood) with some syrup and perhaps take a single frame of brood from the strong hive? My worry is that the frames of broodd are completey filled to the edges so i doubt the weak colony will be able to keep them all warm.

 

[Kaz]

I'm certainly no expert, but as your other colony is sounding pretty strong I would take a frame of mostly sealed brood and give to the weak one. That will give them a boost of emerging nurse bees to look after brood, if they're low on stores I'd feed them too (fondant if you have it, if not a 2:1 syrup). Do you know why they are weak? Have they been treated for varroa for example?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi everyone,

Exciting time of the year

I went into the winter with two fairly strong hives. I nadiered one of them, and fed the other what i thought was enough syrup - over 3 weeks.

Both hives survived the winter and i've seen both queens.

However, the nadiered hive is very strong already (as i hoped) and more than half the frames are completely filled to the edges with an even brood. The entrance is very busy and there are stores on the outer frames. I've just added a super to this hive and they've started cleaning the frames. Great!

But the other hive is extremely weak - perhaps i did not feed them enough? I inspected today and the queen is busy walking around, but there is very little brood/larvae and a low population - less than there was 10 days ago. I would say the nucleus is about 4inches in diameter over three frames. Some of the stores have crystallised honey in them.

I'm not sure how to help this hive. I've read that its not worth taking resources from the strong hive to help a failing one, but if i do nothing i cant see them lasting much longer.

Is it worth moving them into a nuc box (currently in a 14x12 brood) with some syrup and perhaps take a single frame of brood from the strong hive? My worry is that the frames of broodd are completey filled to the edges so i doubt the weak colony will be able to keep them all warm.

I had a colony like this yesterday. I pinched the queen and shook them out.
You could try putting them into a nuc box and dummying that down to three frames with an insulated dummy. If you want to give them a frame give them pollen from your other hive but I certainly wouldn't waste a frame of brood.
I would like to know why they are weak. Nosema? Varroa?Failing Queen?
I suspect they are a goner.

 

[Boston Bees]

Hi everyone,

Exciting time of the year

I went into the winter with two fairly strong hives. I nadiered one of them, and fed the other what i thought was enough syrup - over 3 weeks.

Both hives survived the winter and i've seen both queens.

However, the nadiered hive is very strong already (as i hoped) and more than half the frames are completely filled to the edges with an even brood. The entrance is very busy and there are stores on the outer frames. I've just added a super to this hive and they've started cleaning the frames. Great!

But the other hive is extremely weak - perhaps i did not feed them enough? I inspected today and the queen is busy walking around, but there is very little brood/larvae and a low population - less than there was 10 days ago. I would say the nucleus is about 4inches in diameter over three frames. Some of the stores have crystallised honey in them.

I'm not sure how to help this hive. I've read that its not worth taking resources from the strong hive to help a failing one, but if i do nothing i cant see them lasting much longer.

Is it worth moving them into a nuc box (currently in a 14x12 brood) with some syrup and perhaps take a single frame of brood from the strong hive? My worry is that the frames of broodd are completey filled to the edges so i doubt the weak colony will be able to keep them all warm.

I would vote for putting them in a nice warm poly nuc but not adding any brood. And then feed them - sounds like you may have a stores issue if you are asking if you didn't feed them enough. Had a colony like this at the start of 2020, did the above, and it boomed. You never know.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

But the other hive is extremely weak - perhaps i did not feed them enough? I inspected today and the queen is busy walking around, but there is very little brood/larvae and a low population - less than there was 10 days ago. I would say the nucleus is about 4inches in diameter over three frames. Some of the stores have crystallised honey in them.

I'm not sure how to help this hive. I've read that its not worth taking resources from the strong hive to help a failing one, but if i do nothing i cant see them lasting much longer.

it feels early to be taking such action to me.....have you ascertained how much brood there is and how many seams of bees? i wouldnt get hung up on the comparison with the stronger....if they are seriously weak less than a warm nuc and feed may help...i looked at 4 colonies today and they range from 2-4 frames bia as still v early

 

[drex]

A 4 inch diameter cluster of bees in 14x12 are likely to be doomed. Get them into a poly nucs before the really cold weather gets here. A frame of pollen and stores or feed a good idea and what will be will be. I think it is their best chance.

 

[Hachi]

Putting a frame of brood in without enough bees to cover them is a waste and will not save them.

 

[Antipodes]

Hi everyone,

Exciting time of the year

I went into the winter with two fairly strong hives. I nadiered one of them, and fed the other what i thought was enough syrup - over 3 weeks.

Both hives survived the winter and i've seen both queens.

However, the nadiered hive is very strong already (as i hoped) and more than half the frames are completely filled to the edges with an even brood. The entrance is very busy and there are stores on the outer frames. I've just added a super to this hive and they've started cleaning the frames. Great!

But the other hive is extremely weak - perhaps i did not feed them enough? I inspected today and the queen is busy walking around, but there is very little brood/larvae and a low population - less than there was 10 days ago. I would say the nucleus is about 4inches in diameter over three frames. Some of the stores have crystallised honey in them.

I'm not sure how to help this hive. I've read that its not worth taking resources from the strong hive to help a failing one, but if i do nothing i cant see them lasting much longer.

Is it worth moving them into a nuc box (currently in a 14x12 brood) with some syrup and perhaps take a single frame of brood from the strong hive? My worry is that the frames of broodd are completey filled to the edges so i doubt the weak colony will be able to keep them all warm.

Hi Bungle,
Do you know how old the queen is?

 

[Bungle]

Thanks everyone,

the queen is 2020. I purchased her at the end of the season after a late swarm where the virgin queen never returned - I think because the weather turned for the worse - so was concerned about time.

both hives were treated for varroa at the end of the year, and no sign of nosema. Can’t help think I didn’t feed enough (not enough experience in hefting) and then when I fed again at end jan/February they must have been too small to break cluster and reach the top feeder?

iv’e cleaned up a poly nuc am hoping the weather stays good enough today to transfer them, along with some syrup in the built in feeder section, and a little pollen patty i have left. I’ll also inspect the stronger hive and if there’s an outer frame with a small area of brood/stores - may moving that with them? The strong hive is getting pretty full so I don’t think replacing a brood frame with some empty drawn will set them back too much?

if I do find a suitable/small frame of brood to move, should I move the nurse bees that are on it too? Or would they attack the queen?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks everyone,

if I do find a suitable/small frame of brood to move, should I move the nurse bees that are on it too? Or would they attack the queen?

The colony you describe is far too small to look after any brood you introduce. It is a waste of brood and time.
Couple of experienced beekeepers have already said this.
Brood frames are moved without nurse bees unless you are making up a nucleus colony from three separate sources.

 

[madasafish]

Put them into a poly nuc, dummied down to three frames, fondant on top of the frames and additional insulation on the roof. (I have just done the same with a weak hive).

That is basically your best chance of getting them through Spring alive and likely to build up again.

If you have no nuc, dummy down your 14x12 to 3 frames and insulate and feed.

(As others above)

 

[ericbeaumont]

the queen is busy walking around, but there is very little brood/larvae

If the queen is failing then adding more bees to prop up the colony us a waste of resource, as Dani and Hachi have suggested.

Unless disease is present (nosema, perhaps, or varroosis) then check for eggs in quantity. If the queen isn't up to it - and she should be laying well by now, even in chilly Chester - then terminate her and unite with newspaper to the other.

Result will be one strong colony which in high season you can split, and be back to running two.

 

[drex]

As said there is no point in adding brood unless you have enough bees in original colony to cover it. Added bees unless they come from at least two other colonies will just fight

 

[Bungle]

ok thanks. I moved them into the poly today with a frame of stores. and decided not to move brood or bees, as suggested. Fingers crossed

The situation seemed a little better today, with more bees, larvae and capped brood than my last inspection - i think underfeeding must have been the cause - so hopefully they will continue to improve.

many thanks

 

[BugsInABox]

As said there is no point in adding brood unless you have enough bees in original colony to cover it. Added bees unless they come from at least two other colonies will just fight

Does the sealed and open brood need covering by nurse bees or just the open?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

all of it

 

[madasafish]

Sealed brood and uncapped larvae need to be kept at c 34.5C by the bees or they suffer abnormalities or die. So bees - using their wing muscles - have to consume honey to heat the hive. Too few bees, too little honey or honey far away or too much space.. and it's good night forever to young bees.

 

[Monbees]

Sealed brood and uncapped larvae need to be kept at c 34.5C by the bees or they suffer abnormalities or die. So bees - using their wing muscles - have to consume honey to heat the hive. Too few bees, too little honey or honey far away or too much space.. and it's good night forever to young bees.

Useful, thank you Madasafish

 

[Bungle]

I didn't want to post too early, just in case ... but things have improved lots.

I moved them into the Poly nuc and added a new top feeder (thinking it would help with insulation levels, i also put a second roof on aswell and kept an eye on the feed. I also gave them, some pollen patty. At first there was signs of dysentery all around the entrance, but it seemed to stop after a while.

The brood area expanded slowly but steadily at first, and as the number of bees increased so did the brood area, however in the last 10 days things have improved dramatically and the brood is now covering about 75% of both sides of 4 frames - so today I moved them back into the old (sterilised) hive.

I'm hopeful that they'll continue to improve - thanks to everyone for the help and advice

 

[thorn]

I didn't want to post too early, just in case ... but things have improved lots.

I moved them into the Poly nuc and added a new top feeder (thinking it would help with insulation levels, i also put a second roof on aswell and kept an eye on the feed. I also gave them, some pollen patty. At first there was signs of dysentery all around the entrance, but it seemed to stop after a while.

The brood area expanded slowly but steadily at first, and as the number of bees increased so did the brood area, however in the last 10 days things have improved dramatically and the brood is now covering about 75% of both sides of 4 frames - so today I moved them back into the old (sterilised) hive.

I'm hopeful that they'll continue to improve - thanks to everyone for the help and advice

Although they'll be foraging, they could still be short on stores because of the abysmal weather. Did you check?