Very damp hive

[Into the lions den]

My impression is that in the British climate a little bit of top ventilation (air through flow) is needed if you use a solid floor.
The famous matchsticks are part of the old-style solid floor technique.
With OMF, the top can be completely closed off and insulated. But that seems to be only with OMF ...

That was merely an opinion. Feedholes/porter holes and matchsticks under cover boards are just heat loss vents, much like others have said.

Knowledgeable beekeepers have denigrated the matchsticks practice for decades, literally. I remember when I was a boy and old bee inspector/instructor called Joe Rodger (his young assistant was a guy who wrote a lot of stuff later, Bob Couston) got stuck into a local amateur beekeeper I used to talk to on my way to and from school about getting rid of the matchsticks as they did no good. Joe died in about 1964 when I was 9.

The reason I remember him well is that he was my fathers mentor in many ways, and he and his wife were friends of my mother and he was a pretty constant visitor to the house. The interest I had developed by that age was great, and I used to hang over the old amateurs garden wall on the way home from school and ask him about his bees. Obsessions start early!

Now, whether Joes instructions were from his own observations or from things he had learned as a result of much earlier findings we can never know, but you can see that getting rid of upper openings was being actively taught 50 years back. This was all on solid floors btw. Keep them warm overhead, keep the entrances a few inches above ground level, let air go all round the hive, including underneath, then damp is rarely a problem.

If it still is a problem having done the above, then you have to look at the actual site itself, which could be in itself damp and lacking in air drainage or movement or deficient in sun, or your hive is structurally unsound in some way and damp is getting in. I have never, even in uninsulated wooden hives, seen a hive as damp as originally asked about, without there being a problem with the roof.

 

[Ely]

Christ. Simple bloody physics. Moisture needs ventilation to escape. You can only warm a hive to a certain point but moisture will carry on being made past that point regardless. Not directed at OP

 

[itma]

Christ. Simple bloody physics. Moisture needs ventilation to escape. ...

Absolutely.
It only needs a little (eg 'trickle' vents in double-glazed window units), but it does need some.
To me, mould indicates not just damp, but also stagnant air - whether in a beehive, a house or elsewhere.
Some (even just a little) air movement (and air change) is needed!

ITLD's point about the roof is a simple and obvious one that hadn't been mentioned before. It needs to be considered. (Even though we are officially having a drought down here!)


There's two different things though.
The amount of ventilation needed to keep a hive dry.
And the amount of venting needed to dry out a sodden hive - rather more I'd suggest.

Since the weather down south is currently quite mild, and the colony is not short of stores, my feeling is that more venting than usual could and should be afforded, to take maximum advantage of this spell of helpful weather.



There's another question though, and I'd like to hear the voices of experience addressing it.
The op has seen mould on this colony's frames.
Apart from drying out the hive, how can that be dealt with, now and in the future?
Should he be planning to get those frames out at the earliest opportunity? (I'm thinking of removal ASAP of any empty-comb frames, and later some sort of comb-change procedure.)
Should the mould-covered frames (and comb) be burned? (or can the wax be sanitised with melting and the frames scorched?)
Or is it possible that the bees can be relied upon to sanitise their own nest?

 

[madasafish]

Christ. Simple bloody physics. Moisture needs ventilation to escape. You can only warm a hive to a certain point but moisture will carry on being made past that point regardless. Not directed at OP

All you need is it to condense on a wall and drip down and out.. Far better than holes in ceilings...

The same laws of physics apply to hives as to houses...

Simple bloody physics and yes I have a degree in said subject.

 

[drstitson]

"Moisture needs ventilation to escape."

sure. but what you don't want is a 45cm2 chimney in the top of your hive (with matchsticks). Finman has a small hole at the top of his brood box.

what is most important is to ensure that the coldest surface in the hive is not the crownboard. hence the need for AT LEAST 50mm of kingspan or equivalent directly on top of a solid crownboard. that way any condensation will be on the walls and drip down and out.

 

[Into the lions den]

Christ. Simple bloody physics. Moisture needs ventilation to escape. You can only warm a hive to a certain point but moisture will carry on being made past that point regardless. Not directed at OP

Its not a simple as all that. The bees need a decent proportion of that moisture for reconstituing stores.

Also, moist air is marginally denser than dry air at the same temperature, and whilst it will rise whilst warm, condensation only happens once it passes saturation temprature (aka 'dew point'). It then descends slowly to the floor level and out the door.

There are ways to look at the subject that give different answers............but........and with NO ventilation, and irespective of floor type.........the hives with insulation on top winter better than those which do not have insulation. Direct practical experience over thousands of hives. We eliminated any top ventilation many years ago and more recently realised that crown boards with holes also made the wintering situation worse and withdrew all such boards (none newer than 1950s construction anyway if that style) from service.

In our mild UK climate its just not needed. If you have a very wet hive inside there is another cause. Without seeing the hive I cannot add any more, but I would be looking at other factors rather than simply condensation. Things can get a BIT damp well away from the cluster, but NEVER seen outright wet.

 

[user 6228]

Christ. Simple bloody physics. Moisture needs ventilation to escape. You can only warm a hive to a certain point but moisture will carry on being made past that point regardless. Not directed at OP

No it can change phase to liquid and fall under gravity.

And it is simple physics to calculate how much ventilation is required. The warmer the air, less air is needed to carry away the moisture. It takes surprisingly little at 34C , 22C, or 16C compared to 4C (note 1) to keep the moisture level constant, given the moisture output from bees.

The clever trick is to get trick is to arrange so that the exiting air heats up some of the incoming air and the water moisture in the exiting air to either condense in or transfer to the incoming air.

Note 1: ratios are 0.13:0.27:0.38, Internal surface temp of wooden hive external temp 0C

 

[oliver90owner]

One of the reasons why I changed from solid floors to OMF.

My hives were damp when I got them - the beekeeper simply said the bees would clean up the frames. At tne time I thought it was a normal occurrence.

The next couple of winters saw me trying to balance top ventilation with dryness without a howling gale through the hive. Didn't work, obviously.

Of course I knew I could keep it dry, no problem at all - what I was worried about was limiting the draught to within reasonable limits; and it is just a guess with top ventilation. I had not, (at the time) read up on the Warre system which is, seemingly, a super simple insulation, water absorber and slow ventilator - so it would probably work exceedingly well for a National hive, too).

So there I was, trying these mesh floors and 'bingo!' dry hive, few bees on the floor in spring and all round an obvious way to go. I coupled it with my 14 x 12 boxes (I didn't like the idea of an OMF with the bees not being able to retreat upwards from the cold with only a deep, so was using brood and super over winter). I thought it pointless having a gap between lower and upper frames (another waste of space and a slight risk in extreeemly cold weather that a cluster may not cross it, and starve.

I did not consider, at the time, any stores penalty the OMF was costing; it was simply a good way to beat the damp, and have strong colonies in the spring. I now realise that a much smaller free area is satisfactory for the under ventilation.

However the reduction is not quite as simple as using a solid floor with one, or a few, hole(s) cut through and covered in mesh, as they can so very easily be blocked off in the winter (dead bees, detritus from uncappings - and the fauna living in it). BTDT.

The John Harding floors demonstrate how this reduction can be done, quite admirably. The 'happy bee rolling floor' was another possibility, but they were too expensive to try and I never got round to making my own.

Hence, if I need to use a solid floor now, I simply raise the brood box from the floor to give the same ventilation area as matchsticks under the crownboard, but without the howling draught draught through the hive (and every litre of vented air being the warmest in the hive!). I am careful that rain cannot get in/collect on the solid floor, mind.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

"The clever trick is to get trick is to arrange so that the exiting air heats up some of the incoming air and the water moisture in the exiting air to either condense in or transfer to the incoming air. "

Precisely the function of the convecting crownboard which won me first prize and shield in the invention category at the NHS last year!!!!

 

[Finman]

.
One reason to damp hive is too small cluster and too much room.
Dew point stays inside. Then mold generates in peripheria.

Bees cannot keep the empty space warm and moisture soaks into wood.
The water in the wood escapes only by the help of heat.

That is one basic rule when we winter bees : loose space off

It does not help bees, they they have too much space and then the bottom open. Pure global warming.

You never talk about fitting the room for cluster size. I think that it is forgotten.

But I have read many times that colonies seldom fill the whole box. And then troubles begin.

It makes not beekeeper better does he use mesh floor or solid floor.
Skills of beekeeping is not bottom board keeping. Pure nonsense.
Bees do well on boath boards.


.

 

[madasafish]

You really want moisture to condense on the walls and drip away..

Anyone who knows about physics will realise it retains the heat from the condensed liquid...whereas ventilating it away releases the energy into the atmosphere...

So ventilation means using more stores.

 

[user 6228]

You really want moisture to condense on the walls and drip away..

Anyone who knows about physics will realise it retains the heat from the condensed liquid...whereas ventilating it away releases the energy into the atmosphere...

So ventilation means using more stores.

Those walls would need to be well insulated to retain a significant proportion of that heat inside the hive.
And if the hive was warm the bees might then be active enough to be able to drink the condensate. In a cold hive with the colony in a tight cluster most of the winter, the water on the walls is inaccessable

So ventilation means more water flights?

 

[madasafish]

In a tight cluster water is not needed as there will be little evaporation...

 

[itma]

... Direct practical experience over thousands of hives. We eliminated any top ventilation many years ago and more recently realised that crown boards with holes also made the wintering situation worse and withdrew all such boards (none newer than 1950s construction anyway if that style) from service. ...

I don't have any investment in solid floors.

So, asking from genuine curiosity rather than need, in your experience for the British climate, does closed crownboard, solid floor and reduced entrance provide enough air change to reliably keep condensation within tolerable levels? Or does it need an exposed rather than a sheltered site if its closed down as tight as that? Or is that too tightly closed up?



And since no one has addressed it, can I repeat my question as to what should be done about mould on frames?

 

[user 6228]

In a tight cluster water is not needed as there will be little evaporation...

tight cluster = low temperature = energy production = glucose consumption = water vapour.

 

[Finman]

tight cluster = low temperature = energy production = glucose consumption = water vapour.

But now guys. Bees have allready brood. They have quite high temp inside.
Tight cluster is needed when the bees try to keep brood warm during cold night.
You have cold nights. I know that. You must scrap ice from car window when yout start in the morning.

In visited in England 10 days in May and every morning at 7 a'clock I scrabed the car window.

If the cluster is wide and there is brood, it means that hive gives a good shelter to bees and bees are able to rear good brood ball.

Bees do not only get water from sugar consumption. They bring lost of drinking water to make feeding milk.

I have never met condensation problems during broodin time. Hive temp is hig and it moves the dew poit out of hive.

My inner cover is in Spring wet only when

1) wild cast away rain over.
2) insulation touch to rain cover plate and the condensation on metal surface soaks back to the insulation.

The gap between insulation and rain cover needs clear ventilation openings.

 

[itma]

...
You have cold nights. I know that. You must scrap ice from car window when yout start in the morning.

In visited in England 10 days in May and every morning at 7 a'clock I scrabed the car window.
...

You have mentioned this before, so you need to appreciate this. Frost in May is rather unusual in most of England. And very unusual indeed for 10 days in May.
Last year, April gave some of the warmest days of the whole year.
For the next 4 days the lowest night temperature forecast by the BBC for my town is 7C. That's +7C

It is wrong to generalise from that experience of yours as to the coldness of our climate.
Apart from 10 days with snow and ice on the ground, I don't think there have been 10 other days this winter when a windscreen scraper has been needed, down here in the coastal far south-east of England.

But your experience is a good indication of the variability of our climate.
We cannot work by the calender, only by what the weather is actually doing.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

Up in my corner of the country we have had no snow and I have scrapped the car once this winter. 5 miles away it is totally different again. Variations are huge both locally and nationally in the UK.

 

[Finman]

But your experience is a good indication of the variability of our climate.
.

That I exactly mean. But beeks mostly think day and sunshine; how sun heats the hive wall and the hive loads heat in it body like an accu.

In that May **** was in full bloom. Day temp was 7C.

Faily tales more than my tale about "scrabbing window in May".

Sure I know that is very rare because even we seldom scrab windows in May.

Normally we should have in the sea 70 cm ice but today I look to the sea. The edge of ice was only 2 km far away from land.

"Years are not brothers" we say.

.

 

[Finman]

5 miles away it is totally different again. Variations are huge both locally and nationally in the UK.

Yeah!!

In USA Beemaster forum they say the same. But their environment extends from Florida (equal to North Arfica) to Big Lakes. Then to Alaska and caribu lands.

US beekeepers use same hives and same beestocks in that whole "country".
They have huge explanations. And when some one from Canada talks about insulation or about winter feeding, California beekeepers are the best to answer what is needed. They have never promblems with feeding or insulations!!! - no condensations!!!