Varroa

[fiat500bee]

And he most likely fools himself in thinking that the colony deaths he has suffered (and admits her has suffered) are unrelated to Varroa.

Other people might have had winter losses which might not have occurred if they hadn't caused damage and stress to their bees by applying chemical treatments.

 

[Madge]

Does your winking mean you know you’re offering a ridiculous argument? Yes, some treatments can cause damage but with informed use, that won’t happen, and compared to the damage caused by Varroa, insignificant.

 

[fiat500bee]

Does your winking mean you know you’re offering a ridiculous argument? Yes, some treatments can cause damage but with informed use, that won’t happen, and compared to the damage caused by Varroa, insignificant.

I use or any smiling "smiley" to infer that I'm not arguing viciously but just offering an argument in good humour. Not a ridiculous one in this case in my opinion; if I thought it was so then I wouldn't offer it unless clearly defined as a type of "devil's advocate" or tongue-in-cheek statement.

I don't think that you can you say with certainty that a treated colony which expires in the winter has not been negatively affected by that treatment.

 

[Madge]

...I don't think that you can you say with certainty that a treated colony which expires in the winter has not been negatively affected by that treatment.

Do you know of such a case? Mostly the adverse effect of some Varroa treatments, from what I’ve heard - but not experienced - is fairly immediate, and affecting queens, not the whole colony.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And he most likely fools himself in thinking that the colony deaths he has suffered (and admits her has suffered) are unrelated to Varroa.

So do you have any proof to back up your unfounded allegations?

 

[pargyle]

And he most likely fools himself in thinking that the colony deaths he has suffered (and admits her has suffered) are unrelated to Varroa.

No Kitta ... The very few colonies I have lost over the last 9 years (and they are documented in here if you care to search) have had nothing to do with varroa .. the colonies were not heavily infested - mostly they were queen failure (it's been a comon problem with open mated queens down here in some years) - I managed to starve one colony and I lost one to a serious robbing that I didn't get to early enough.

I know what the varroa levels in my colonies are - they are not excessive and the bees appear to manage the situation without treatment. I know you would like to think that this is not the case and I certainly can't explain why my bees survive and thrive without treatment ... but they do.

I don't get Nosema or DWV and I've not seen evidence of any brood disease ... as long as this lasts then I see no reason to treat.

Just because your bees can't survive without treatment for varroa don't think that all colonies are the same ... however - if you keep losing colonies to varroa problems perhaps you should be asking yourself what it is that you are doing wrong ?

 

[fiat500bee]

Do you know of such a case? Mostly the adverse effect of some Varroa treatments, from what I’ve heard - but not experienced - is fairly immediate, and affecting queens, not the whole colony.

Is the queen not just a little bit relevant to the success of the whole colony? (amused wink)

I am not experienced enough to know of any case of a colony failing to overwinter as a direct result of chemical treatment and that's why I am not claiming that this has ever happened; but the reverse of this is the situation that you are inferring to be the case. I am thinking about the wider situation in which health and fecundity can be affected by interlinked events. So if this was more than a five minute argument I might ask you to give me evidence to support the fact that chemical treatments of bees have no complex, longer term effects.

But I'm not looking for proof and if I were this is the wrong thread on which to ask.

 

[Moobee]

Not lost a hive to varroa or disease yet ... I've seen a few spikes in the mite count ... held my nerve ... it always went back down. If I had a colony that were really infested and were clearly not managing the mite load - and if they worth were keeping .. I would treat ... I have the means but haven't needed to use it so far. Going into my ninth season TF.

interesting..... as I appear to have supersedure in my only colony, I cant treat anyway now so have no choice not to treat in case I disturb the new queen. Had been leaving it as still have nectar flow and the bees were still busy foraging. My mentor said I have a very strong colony with hardly any mite drop (and she doesn't treat either) and had left it to me to decide what I should do.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

interesting..... as I appear to have supersedure in my only colony, I cant treat anyway now so have no choice not to treat in case I disturb the new queen. Had been leaving it as still have nectar flow and the bees were still busy foraging. My mentor said I have a very strong colony with hardly any mite drop (and she doesn't treat either) and had left it to me to decide what I should do.

Your best bet would be to leave it until December and either vape or trickle OA

 

[Newbeeneil]

I purchased a queen from a local guy who has been TF for 13 yrs now to see how the hive performs. It's in the long hive I have in my garden and I have been monitoring natural Varroa drop since I got her. I know this is a very crude method but the drops have been low. It will be interesting to see how they winter.

 

[Madge]

So do you have any proof to back up your unfounded allegations?

I said ‘most likely’.

 

[Madge]

Is the queen not just a little bit relevant to the success of the whole colony? (amused wink)

I am not experienced enough to know of any case of a colony failing to overwinter as a direct result of chemical treatment and that's why I am not claiming that this has ever happened; ...

Yes, a queen’s death is very relevant - but that’s not a colony death some time over winter, as you’ve implied.

You did rather suggest the possibility of colony death as a result of treating against Varroa (with a wink). That would imply, at least, that you know of such a possibility.

 

[Madge]

... Just because your bees can't survive without treatment for varroa don't think that all colonies are the same ... however - if you keep losing colonies to varroa problems perhaps you should be asking yourself what it is that you are doing wrong ?

I never said I’m losing colonies due to Varroa. How did you come to that conclusion? I don’t take chances with my colonies’ health. If they have Varroa, I treat them, and if only one colony in an apiary has Varroa, I treat the whole apiary.

 

[bobba]

And he most likely fools himself in thinking that the colony deaths he has suffered (and admits her has suffered) are unrelated to Varroa.

I understand your skepticism. If is was some random forum member I was unfamiliar with, I would be inclined to think the same.

Pargyle knows a lot more about bees than me and is probably a better keeper than I will ever be. He has gone above and beyond to help me out this year.
I don't think he would lie and think he has the skills to make a good assessment of what killed a colony.

So if he says that's the case, than that's good enough for me.

However, I would like to put one of his hives in my garden, to see if its the location or bee stock that's working the magic.

 

[Madge]

... Pargyle knows a lot more about bees than me and is probably a better keeper than I will ever be. ...

So if he says that's the case, than that's good enough for me. ...

It's not just treatment-free beekeepers who may fool themselves - or be unaware - that the actual cause of a colony's death might be Varroa. Those who treat might have used the wrong treatment for the time of year, or treated too early or too late. Like Pargyle, they may think, or feel certain, that they know the cause of the colony's death - but behind that, might be Varroa. It might have happened to me as well - who knows ...

 

[pargyle]

I never said I’m losing colonies due to Varroa. How did you come to that conclusion? I don’t take chances with my colonies’ health. If they have Varroa, I treat them, and if only one colony in an apiary has Varroa, I treat the whole apiary.

Ok ... So what are YOUR overwinter losses ? You seem to think that my untreated bees have varroa related losses ... so what are your treated colony losses ... or perhaps with your treatment regime you don't have any ... do tell ?

 

[Madge]

Ok ... So what are YOUR overwinter losses ? You seem to think that my untreated bees have varroa related losses ... so what are your treated colony losses ... or perhaps with your treatment regime you don't have any ... do tell ?

You're totally missing the point of what I've said.

 

[fiat500bee]

Yes, a queen’s death is very relevant - but that’s not a colony death some time over winter, as you’ve implied.

You did rather suggest the possibility of colony death as a result of treating against Varroa (with a wink). That would imply, at least, that you know of such a possibility.

You really are overestimating my knowledge and experience; I would certainly share any factual evidence that I held which was relevant to what we are discussing.

Given the complexity of what goes on in a colony of bees and their complete reliance on naturally produced chemicals for every function, it is hard to understand how it can be that dousing their bodies in strong chemicals does not cause them any long-term ill effects. You seem to be conceding, as an explanation for a colony death, that some people " .........might have used the wrong treatment for the time of year, or treated too early or too late."

How does anyone really know these things...they all have to be approximations.

PS. I'm going wink-free as well as treatment-free from now on.

 

[fiat500bee]

You're totally missing the point of what I've said.

...and you're missing out the answer to the question.

 

[pargyle]

...and you're missing out the answer to the question.

As usual ... I've played this game before ....