Varroa to treat or not?

[madasafish]

The "don't treat" approach is similar to the "don't innoculate aginist smallpox" argument...

Of course, if you use the same treatment every year and build up mite resistance, you are being foolish...

 

[Ivor Kemp]

Bees and varroa would certainly get along quicker if nobody treated but what I was hinting at was not treating prophylactically and only breeding from the ones that dont need treatment ( assessed through monitering )

mbc I take your point but, as I'm sure you are aware, us newbies are also told that one of the main reasons for the rapid spread of varroa is down to beekeepers themselves - introducing bees to colonies that mix up natural selection etc. etc. An argument for treatment therefore is to counter the tampering we are doing with our bees.

Also, I think your point is OK for beekeepers who have the advantage of a number of hives in their apiary. I for one have one hive, a colony of bees that 'adopted' me by taking up residence in one of my compost bins before I transferred them to a hive. They are my 'one and only' which I hold with great affection and I want to do everything possible for their welfare.

 

[Finman]

the main reasons for the rapid spread of varroa is down to beekeepers themselves - introducing bees to colonies that mix up natural selection etc..

There is one big fault in that argument. A honeybee is domestic animal and breeded by human selection. If you let natural selection happen, the hell will be discharged.

"Natural honey from compost bin" - yeah!

 

[Brosville]

There spoke the voice of the "factory farming" lobby........ whereby nature is dismissed as inferior, and the arrogant assumption made that "we know better", much trumpeted in the Victorian era as a "justification" for forcing nature to do our will- totally overlooking the fact that nature is older, wiser, and far more complex than our feeble minds can encompass - roll on the day when more people learn to work with nature rather than trying to bludgeon it into submission............
In an effort to embrace that philosophy, I'd suggest an intelligent approach - do a mite count first, see if treatment is necessary - if it is, use sugar dusting (learn the method and apply it properly) - should that prove ineffective, THEN consider something potentially more toxic (perhaps thymol, lactic or oxalic acids), but only when you know it's completely necessary........
The news today is full of news of another "superbug", which come about by over and misuse of powerful nostrums which should only be used when no other course is left, not as "everyday"

 

[Ivor Kemp]

There is one big fault in that argument. A honeybee is domestic animal and breeded by human selection. If you let natural selection happen, the hell will be discharged.

"Natural honey from compost bin" - yeah!

I think that was what I was saying but a different way around.

Because the bee is now 'bred by human selection' - amongst other things - we have interfered, so the process of natural selection has broken down. Therefore the action of treating, it could be argued, is to counter-balance this.

Of course, I realise that this is slightly dangerous ground and that it could be argued that further interference is less likely to make things right but if so perhaps we should examine whether we should be keeping bees at all in the way that we are.

 

[Finman]

, I'd suggest an intelligent approach - do a mite count first, see if treatment is necessary

- if it is, use sugar dusting (learn the method and apply it properly) - should that prove ineffective, THEN consider something potentially more toxic (perhaps thymol, lactic or oxalic acids), but only when you know it's completely necessary......

"

If you are intelligent , use your brains too, God Heavens!.

 

[Finman]

so the process of natural selection has broken down..

If you know better beekeeping and bee biology, it is not.

Quite few beekeepers select their queens and breed them. They just let swarming happen and bees rear their new queens and drones.


There are places in the world where some bee strains have survived with varroa decade or more. All those strains has been tested if someone knows about them.

I ask from our bee researcher, why he does not breed his bees to stand varroa. He has lots of Elgon bees and its mongrels. He said that it is dangerous select bees strictly on the base of one feature.

Americans went to Siberia and picked from there the origin Russian bee.
Despite of talking, it is not varroa tolerant and naturally kept its honey yield is modest.

 

[Finman]

I so the process of natural selection has broken down. Therefore the action of treating, it could be argued, is to counter-balance this.

.

PART II

Englishmen know better dogs than bees. I suppose.

So what about natural selection of dogs. It has broken.

So we let all dogs go to stereet and we wait for natural selection.

Our aim is to get ridd off via natural selection from Ixodes holocyclus (dog paralysis tick, and Rhipicephalus sanguineus (brown dog tick).

What do you say abouyt that idea

To broswille about intelligent approach: Does it help if we calculate first the number of ticks before we kill the ticks ? How does it work?

 

[Brosville]

To take your analogy (in my mind a wholly inappropriate one if you're trying to justify the "we know best" approach) - in recent years it has become evident that many of the so-called "experts" in the kennel club have bred great swathes of malformed and sick animals, who can't breathe properly, suffer from hip dysplasia or are born blind, deaf or completely doolally - and if you want a non-neurotic dog that won't have you forever at the vet's, a good old-fashioned "Bitza, Heinz 57, mongrel will beat most highly-bred dogs hands down for health and vitality.........
Nature knows best........

 

[Poly Hive]

That is not a realistic analogy as you know fine well.

PH

 

[Poly Hive]

Here is a cautionary tale.

Before Varroa arrived here I went on a course to Germany. I was probably the most inexperienced person on the trip of some 25 people, a mix of beefarmers and the beekeeping "intelligentsia" , which is to say highly qualified beekeepers who lectured rather than ran a lot of colonies.

The Germans had a fantastic set up with line breeding going on and so many staff and cash (or so it seemed) that it was a bit over powering.

They took us to an apiary and said help your self... look through the bees.

So after wards we discussed matters and whilst things looked sort of ok it was obvious that underlying there was a real problem but there was no evidence to be seen of disease or robbing or..... anything at all.

Puzzled we went to the lab with a few combs of brood and here the issue was revealed......... Varroa by the thousands. It was downright shocking.

This apiary we were then told was supported on the verge of collapse with additions of clean brood from donor hives and kept to show the innocents like us how devious (for a word) varroa are.

Varroa is not to be underestimated and given the choice between treating and not I know what I am doing.

Newbies should be very wary about Varroa, and whilst sugar dusting is all very well, the real issue is post then, I mean past the time when you CAN sugar the bees, as the real hidden infestation arrives unbeknownst to you with colony collapse. Other peoples screw ups affecting you.

PH

 

[RoseCottage]

Well having been in meetings all morning I have been unable to keep abreast of the discussions.

the following comes from the Bbka web site:

Average Daily Natural Mite Mortality
Jan - March <2 no action 2-7 plan future control
7> consider control
April - June <1 no action 1-7 light control 7> severe risk
July - Aug <2 no action 2-8 light control 8> severe risk
Sept - Dec <6 no action 6-8 light control 8> severe risk
Light control might be drone brood culling, artificial swarming,
dusting with icing sugar, etc. rather than heavy control using chemicals.

It goes on to say that studies have shown that a population of 1000 Varroa mites is the acceptable maximum in a hive.


I am not advocating no treatment just a proportionate response to the results of monitoring your own hives.

Varroa is here to stay and we don't have many tools. It is shortsighted to continually treat regardless of your situation. Countless studies demonstrate that resistance builds up - something we all understand in the NHS. So lazy, treat all by default regardless, attitudes will be fine for 5-7 years and then what? Treatment of disease needs to be consistent and evidence based, where it is not things only get worse.

The Vaccine argument is not appropriate as resistance cannot be built up.
The best analogy would be antibiotic resistance.

People make their own choices, mine is to use the guidelines that have come from detailed studies, and apply intelligent appropriate controls as necessary.

if after treatment I see a Varroa drop of 3-400 that actually shows me that my colony was coping pretty well and was managing fine. Did I actually need to treat at that stage, probably not.

People make their own choices but I prefer to make my decisions based on evidence.

If you are all monitoring and then treating regardless then why waste your time monitoring? You are going to ignore the positive results ultimately anyway.

Sam

 

[Finman]

If you are all monitoring and then treating regardless then why waste your time monitoring? You are going to ignore the positive results ultimately anyway.

Sam

In apistan time it was idea to make apistan comtanination smaller in combs.
It was said that contamination will develop tolerant mites sooner or later, and it happened.
It was said that don't keep slices over time in hives.

Now recent popular stuffs have not shown tolerancy.

I learned my lessons quite early. I killed my first hive 1982 on my parents home yard. Then it took time that the mite arrived to cottage yard. 1987 my friend come to me and said that now mites are here. My mother in law went to Germany and bring to me Perizin. I saved my hives. No problem.

My friend 50 km away told that he has mites and all his neigbours 10 hives had died last winter. I told that I give you free Perizin for his 60 hives. He said that thank you, let's have a look next year. So he lost 30 hives next winter.

To me these accidents told that this is serious thing. I have studied genetics in university but it did not came into my mind that I start to breed mite tolerant bees.
On my cottage district area most of the beehives died during few years and beekeepers did not even know what happened after keeping 30 years bees.

It took 10 years that varroa went across the Finland.

I have seen how massive disaster varroa may do, and I do not recommend to anybocy: just calculate, do nothing. My neighbour did so and allways he told in autumn that mite contamination is serious.

But later I got Apistan tolerant mite stock and it destroyed 60% of my hives together with extra dry summer.


***********

What was good in this: varroa destroyed all German Back feral colonies. Thanks to heaven!!!
.

 

[Arfermo]

Well here we go again.

The wonders of the difference of opinion in beekeeping. No wonder us newbies get confused!

I was speaking to my regional bee inspector on the phone only yesterday, and he said completely the opposite to yours. He stated quite categorically that everyone should be treating for Varroa and preferably at the beginning of August.

He was also the one who confirmed the old boy's plight.

The FERA rep who gave mt Association a chat about varroa last week was adamant that whether or not you think you have none or very few varroa, you are bound to have some and treatment is virtually axiomatic if the colony is to be able to withstand the rigours of the winter season. Oxalic in Dec/Jan is also a must!!! Safety first if you really care about the husbandry of your bees.

 

[beebreeder]

Ivor Kemp
A good friend of mine decided that he was going to tackle varroa the natural way and treated none of his colonies a good few years ago now. He had 60+, after winter he had 30 ish and a lot very weak. You have one, and half of one is ? in colony numbers one dead or dying colony, treat for the bees sake and any neighbours as well if you have varroa ridden bees that migrate to their treated hives it could spell disaster for them

 

[Ivor Kemp]

Thanks Arfermo and BeeBreeder.

The Apiguard is ordered and on this weekend.

 

[rae]

if after treatment I see a Varroa drop of 3-400 that actually shows me that my colony was coping pretty well and was managing fine. Did I actually need to treat at that stage, probably not.

The problem with this is that varroa growth rates are exponential. If you colony has 400 mites in July, they will have several thousand in August. If you treat and find 400 mites on the board, you've saved them just in time.

 

[Finman]

If you colony has 400 mites in July, they will have several thousand in August. .

It is not Varroa douples its number in one month.

400 - 800 - 1600

Ritght answer is if you have 400 in July, in August you have 800

 

[MJBee]

It is not Varroa douples its number in one month.

400 - 800 - 1600

Ritght answer is if you have 400 in July, in August you have 800

and by september they have crashed

 

[Stiffy]

I wonder why most are seeing a drop in the mite drop this year, maybe its because we all (or most) have been treating or it may be some other reason?
If it is the first and we stop now are we putting the situation back by several years?

I will be treating at end of the month even if there is only a single mite on the boards and applying oxalic acid as a chrimbo pressie.
I would also rather be safe than sorry and come through the winter with a strong colony!