VARROA SENSITIVE HYGIENE

[pargyle]

That link is messed up - hopefully this will come through:

]************************
shop[/URL]
/bbka-special-edition-natural-varroa-resistant-honey-bees



There is a good introduction to the Snowdonia bees here: https://beemonitor.files.wordpress....ild-honeybees-of-snowdonia-v3-new-version.pdf

You can't post links to the BBKA website ... but they are easy to find with a google search or most people will know where their website is.

 

[Michael Palmer]

I agree .. there's too much of the continual repetition of the same old arguments at present. Some people obviously enjoy it - I just wish they would bring some fresh sandwiches to the picnic.

Okay,,,here's some meat and mayo for your sandwich...

I believe our varroa/virus complex, here in the US, is different than yours. Most of your honey bee colonies are non-migratory. Sedentary if you will. Those that move go to Heather and then back home. Here that movement is quite different. Whole migratory operations move from the north to wintering locations in the south. Then, in February, 2 million colonies move to California to pollinate the almond crop. Think of it. So many colonies, shoulder to shoulder in the almond orchards. Then they all move back to their southern wintering yards. Then they move to northern pollination contracts like blueberries in Maine. After all that, they move back to their summer honey production apiaries...surrounding us stationary beekeepers.

As I said, think about it. Millions of honey bee colonies moving back to their summer yards bringing their three "Ps" along with them...Pests, Parasites, and Pathogens. It's very obvious when the migratories arrive here. Small Hive Beetles, which don't overwinter up here in the north, show up in high numbers. In my opinion, the varroa they bring us are different than they used to be. They are carrying varroa/virus that are much more lethal. Colonies with varroa load just above treatment threshold are dead in September...treated or not.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say...I'm very happy for you beekeepers who find treatment free beekeeping to be, in some way, successful for you. I do hope you understand the difference between your situation and mine. The comments I've made earlier in this thread are from my experience and from my observations on honey bees here in Vermont. I would never criticize you all for your beliefs and your management. I would hope you could understand why I say what I do and how different our situations actually are. Good luck and best wishes for the upcoming year.

 

[user 20297]

Okay,,,here's some meat and mayo for your sandwich...

I believe our varroa/virus complex, here in the US, is different than yours. Most of your honey bee colonies are non-migratory. Sedentary if you will. Those that move go to Heather and then back home. Here that movement is quite different. Whole migratory operations move from the north to wintering locations in the south. Then, in February, 2 million colonies move to California to pollinate the almond crop. Think of it. So many colonies, shoulder to shoulder in the almond orchards. Then they all move back to their southern wintering yards. Then they move to northern pollination contracts like blueberries in Maine. After all that, they move back to their summer honey production apiaries...surrounding us stationary beekeepers.

As I said, think about it. Millions of honey bee colonies moving back to their summer yards bringing their three "Ps" along with them...Pests, Parasites, and Pathogens. It's very obvious when the migratories arrive here. Small Hive Beetles, which don't overwinter up here in the north, show up in high numbers. In my opinion, the varroa they bring us are different than they used to be. They are carrying varroa/virus that are much more lethal. Colonies with varroa load just above treatment threshold are dead in September...treated or not.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say...I'm very happy for you beekeepers who find treatment free beekeeping to be, in some way, successful for you. I do hope you understand the difference between your situation and mine. The comments I've made earlier in this thread are from my experience and from my observations on honey bees here in Vermont. I would never criticize you all for your beliefs and your management. I would hope you could understand why I say what I do and how different our situations actually are. Good luck and best wishes for the upcoming year.

That's a really tasty contribution to the "picnic" that gives us reasoned explanations rather than the stale, repetitious flavours and fillings that frequently pertain to both sides the Varroa discussion.

 

[JohnRB]

That link is messed up and I can't make it work - searching this gets you there:

bbka-special-edition-natural-varroa-resistant-honey-bees

There is a good introduction to the Snowdonia bees here: https://beemonitor.files.wordpress....ild-honeybees-of-snowdonia-v3-new-version.pdf

Thanks - I've sent off for the BBKA publication.

I still have issues though. I attended a lecture by Alan & Tricia Nobel at the Spring Convention on 'Treatment Free Varroa Management' which was very interesting. I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like in their first year of being treatment free they started with 60 hives and ended up with 11. That is not quite what I would call success, but each to their own. In fact I admire them for their perseverance, but I don't want to go through that process.

In late November I joined an interesting zoom lecture 'Varroa Management in honeybee colonies by Dr Kirsty Stainton. Dr Stainton is from FERA Science, the research arm of the NBU and who has recently published a book on varroa management. I think it is clear that the NBU very much still advocates varroa management by treatment, mechanical manipulations, or both. Kirsty raised an interesting point (her main work seems to be in bee viruses) - honeybees need to be able to cope with lots of viral and other diseases, as well as varroa, and the larger the gene pool, the more likely it is that bees will survive whatever comes along. Her concern with the TF approach seemed to be that such approaches can vastly reduce the gene pool - and create what she called a 'genetic bottleneck. I think the Nobel's experience, above, demonstrates this. How many colonies are you prepared to let die in the quest for bees that are naturally varroa tolerant? If there weren't any, would you let them all die?

I read the Snowdonia piece - again interesting, but I get disheartened when I read phrases like: 'the futile desire to breed a ‘super bee’; a honeybee that was easier to handle, less aggressive, and more profitable'. The article doesn't quote any studies to back this assertion up and makes no attempt to explain why such a desire is futile - after all, selective breeding of the kind suggested has been applied for thousands of years to animals or plants. If that hadn't been done, I wouldn't be eating this banana and I'd have a wolf by my chair. I've yet to read a convincing explanation as to why selective breeding is good in most things, but bad in bees. If people were genetically modifying bees, I would understand the concerns, but selective breeding just makes use of genes that are already there (or fortuitous random mutation)

I also struggle with the whole idea of 'native british bee' - presumably these are only native since the last ice age and their descendants are simply the first that made it back here when the ice receded. If it had been the carniolans that made it back first, presumably it would be this subspecies that would be promoted in Snowdonia? It all seems so arbitrary.

I've also seen stated that locally adapted actually means a lot more local than most people think. So there is probably a Yorkshire Dales bee, a Cheviots bee and even an Abingdon bee

Anyway, I'd best leave this discussion here as it has got to the circular stage. I wish you all the best in your quest. I hope we can all enjoy our beekeeping in our own way. If you develop a varroa resistant bee, no matter how you do it, I'll be in the queue to try them out. Happy New Year.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Thanks - I've sent off for the BBKA publication.

I still have issues though. I attended a lecture by Alan & Tricia Nobel at the Spring Convention on 'Treatment Free Varroa Management' which was very interesting. I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like in their first year of being treatment free they started with 60 hives and ended up with 11. That is not quite what I would call success, but each to their own. In fact I admire them for their perseverance, but I don't want to go through that process.

In late November I joined an interesting zoom lecture 'Varroa Management in honeybee colonies by Dr Kirsty Stainton. Dr Stainton is from FERA Science, the research arm of the NBU and who has recently published a book on varroa management. I think it is clear that the NBU very much still advocates varroa management by treatment, mechanical manipulations, or both. Kirsty raised an interesting point (her main work seems to be in bee viruses) - honeybees need to be able to cope with lots of viral and other diseases, as well as varroa, and the larger the gene pool, the more likely it is that bees will survive whatever comes along. Her concern with the TF approach seemed to be that such approaches can vastly reduce the gene pool - and create what she called a 'genetic bottleneck. I think the Nobel's experience, above, demonstrates this. How many colonies are you prepared to let die in the quest for bees that are naturally varroa tolerant? If there weren't any, would you let them all die?

I read the Snowdonia piece - again interesting, but I get disheartened when I read phrases like: 'the futile desire to breed a ‘super bee’; a honeybee that was easier to handle, less aggressive, and more profitable'. The article doesn't quote any studies to back this assertion up and makes no attempt to explain why such a desire is futile - after all, selective breeding of the kind suggested has been applied for thousands of years to animals or plants. If that hadn't been done, I wouldn't be eating this banana and I'd have a wolf by my chair. I've yet to read a convincing explanation as to why selective breeding is good in most things, but bad in bees. If people were genetically modifying bees, I would understand the concerns, but selective breeding just makes use of genes that are already there (or fortuitous random mutation)

I also struggle with the whole idea of 'native british bee' - presumably these are only native since the last ice age and their descendants are simply the first that made it back here when the ice receded. If it had been the carniolans that made it back first, presumably it would be this subspecies that would be promoted in Snowdonia? It all seems so arbitrary.

I've also seen stated that locally adapted actually means a lot more local than most people think. So there is probably a Yorkshire Dales bee, a Cheviots bee and even an Abingdon bee

Anyway, I'd best leave this discussion here as it has got to the circular stage. I wish you all the best in your quest. I hope we can all enjoy our beekeeping in our own way. If you develop a varroa resistant bee, no matter how you do it, I'll be in the queue to try them out. Happy New Year.

Thanks John and best wishes to you also for 2023. Being cautiously interested is the right place to start. I also attended one of Alan and Tricia's workshops, which was based on biotechnical reductions of varroa (queen frame trapping), substituting for chemical treatments, not varroa resistant traits. Good start though.

The key takeaway from the Snowdonia experience is that there are traits within our UK bees that manage their mite portfolios. Prof Stephen Martin and some beekeepers will be presenting on that at this April's Spring Convention - hope you can make it.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Okay,,,here's some meat and mayo for your sandwich...

I believe our varroa/virus complex, here in the US, is different than yours. Most of your honey bee colonies are non-migratory. Sedentary if you will. Those that move go to Heather and then back home. Here that movement is quite different. Whole migratory operations move from the north to wintering locations in the south. Then, in February, 2 million colonies move to California to pollinate the almond crop. Think of it. So many colonies, shoulder to shoulder in the almond orchards. Then they all move back to their southern wintering yards. Then they move to northern pollination contracts like blueberries in Maine. After all that, they move back to their summer honey production apiaries...surrounding us stationary beekeepers.

As I said, think about it. Millions of honey bee colonies moving back to their summer yards bringing their three "Ps" along with them...Pests, Parasites, and Pathogens. It's very obvious when the migratories arrive here. Small Hive Beetles, which don't overwinter up here in the north, show up in high numbers. In my opinion, the varroa they bring us are different than they used to be. They are carrying varroa/virus that are much more lethal. Colonies with varroa load just above treatment threshold are dead in September...treated or not.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say...I'm very happy for you beekeepers who find treatment free beekeeping to be, in some way, successful for you. I do hope you understand the difference between your situation and mine. The comments I've made earlier in this thread are from my experience and from my observations on honey bees here in Vermont. I would never criticize you all for your beliefs and your management. I would hope you could understand why I say what I do and how different our situations actually are. Good luck and best wishes for the upcoming year.

Thanks Michael. The insights help explain the high colony losses in the US. Tough environment for you.

There will certainly be more to learn on the types of DWV. I understood the latest research in the US was type A being most prevalent. The UK experience was that type A had attenuated to type B, mildly less pathogenic. If virus screening gets cheaper, we'll get to see the elevated viruses in our colonies, rather than assume the most common ones are there. Thank you again and good luck with the UBO.
Steve

 

[pargyle]

Okay,,,here's some meat and mayo for your sandwich...

I believe our varroa/virus complex, here in the US, is different than yours. Most of your honey bee colonies are non-migratory. Sedentary if you will. Those that move go to Heather and then back home. Here that movement is quite different. Whole migratory operations move from the north to wintering locations in the south. Then, in February, 2 million colonies move to California to pollinate the almond crop. Think of it. So many colonies, shoulder to shoulder in the almond orchards. Then they all move back to their southern wintering yards. Then they move to northern pollination contracts like blueberries in Maine. After all that, they move back to their summer honey production apiaries...surrounding us stationary beekeepers.

As I said, think about it. Millions of honey bee colonies moving back to their summer yards bringing their three "Ps" along with them...Pests, Parasites, and Pathogens. It's very obvious when the migratories arrive here. Small Hive Beetles, which don't overwinter up here in the north, show up in high numbers. In my opinion, the varroa they bring us are different than they used to be. They are carrying varroa/virus that are much more lethal. Colonies with varroa load just above treatment threshold are dead in September...treated or not.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say...I'm very happy for you beekeepers who find treatment free beekeeping to be, in some way, successful for you. I do hope you understand the difference between your situation and mine. The comments I've made earlier in this thread are from my experience and from my observations on honey bees here in Vermont. I would never criticize you all for your beliefs and your management. I would hope you could understand why I say what I do and how different our situations actually are. Good luck and best wishes for the upcoming year.

It is always interesting to hear what you have to say Mike, I heard you talk in Lymington (or was it Lyndhurst ?) a good few years ago ... loads of common sense - and lots about the awful practices you have over there with migratory beekeeping and in-bred queens raised early in Florida and shipped all over the states - it's not really surprising that your varroa are more rampant and more deadly than ours over here.

My vjew - for what little it is worth - is that nobody should simply stop treating for varroa ... it's a recipe for a disaster as many have found. There are lots of people who are interested in becoming TF but the key is to start proper and regular testing and see what mite loads are present in individual colonies - it can vary dramatically even in the same apiary ... those that demonstrate a consistently low load get little or no treatment and are the colonies that you raise queens from .. those with heavier mite loads - get treated until the mite load reduces.

I can't see any real benefit in allowing colonies to be overcome by varroa - we are still a good few years away from treatment free beekeeping in the UK.

 

[Michael Palmer]

It is always interesting to hear what you have to say Mike, I heard you talk in Lymington (or was it Lyndhurst ?) a good few years ago ... loads of common sense -

Thank you. I remember the Hampshire presentation. I believe that's when we stayed with the Bennett's. Bob was a mortar expert and worked on many famous buildings. I can't remember his wife's name...wish I could. He had severe dementia so is probably gone. Their cat's name was Tony...
Tony Bennette.

 

[Beesnaturally]

There are lots of people who are interested in becoming TF but the key is to start proper and regular testing and see what mite loads are present in individual colonies - it can vary dramatically even in the same apiary ... those that demonstrate a consistently low load get little or no treatment and are the colonies that you raise queens from .. those with heavier mite loads - get treated until the mite load reduces.

Sound perfect to me. In groups even better.

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Plenty of early work with the USDA and Eastern European beeks here.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/southeast-...ons/russian-honey-bee-publications-1993-2007/

Thanks Ian, had not seen the early Yugoslav experiment in the US. Read like they marginally outperformed the local Louisiana bees, but no surprise to see the USDA move on to researching the Primorsky resistant bees. Thanks again
Steve

 

[Beesnaturally]

I believe our varroa/virus complex, here in the US, is different than yours. Most of your honey bee colonies are non-migratory. Sedentary if you will. Those that move go to Heather and then back home. Here that movement is quite different. Whole migratory operations move from the north to wintering locations in the south. Then, in February, 2 million colonies move to California to pollinate the almond crop. Think of it. So many colonies, shoulder to shoulder in the almond orchards. Then they all move back to their southern wintering yards. Then they move to northern pollination contracts like blueberries in Maine. After all that, they move back to their summer honey production apiaries...surrounding us stationary beekeepers.

As I said, think about it. Millions of honey bee colonies moving back to their summer yards bringing their three "Ps" along with them...Pests, Parasites, and Pathogens. It's very obvious when the migratories arrive here. Small Hive Beetles, which don't overwinter up here in the north, show up in high numbers. In my opinion, the varroa they bring us are different than they used to be. They are carrying varroa/virus that are much more lethal. Colonies with varroa load just above treatment threshold are dead in September...treated or not.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say...I'm very happy for you beekeepers who find treatment free beekeeping to be, in some way, successful for you. I do hope you understand the difference between your situation and mine. The comments I've made earlier in this thread are from my experience and from my observations on honey bees here in Vermont. I would never criticize you all for your beliefs and your management. I would hope you could understand why I say what I do and how different our situations actually are. Good luck and best wishes for the upcoming year.

I think that's a really important thing to say, and I'm grateful Michael.

What I take from it is, first:

That we have opportunities that you don't have; secondly

In finding ways of making best use of our opportunity, we should always be mindful to avoid carelessly treating the US experience as applicable to our own.

Some things that don't work well there may well work well here. You may not be able ever to fix your varroa problem: we might be able to. You may be en route to full domestication of your honeybees; we are probably not.

Your researchers have I think shown us the way. I'm thinking of Marla Spivak's influence on me (though I haven't taken her route), Tom Seeley and others. You folks were ahead of us in recovering and pursuing, in research, in experiment and practise, and (with very hard hats) on the forums, the methods that would work. Experimentation at all beekeeping levels uncovered the conditions under which such practices would work, and not. In Europe, I think only John Kefuss (an American) acted as pathfinder, but his low profile meant he was nowhere near as influential as the US component.

Pargyle wrote here a very short while ago about minimising treatment to expose the weak, and requeening from the better. That supplies a method that is in harmony with traditional husbandry, traditional breeding, and reduces damage to local free-living populations - whose presence is a massive aid toward a full fix. It is very recognisable as Marla's, and John Kefuss' teaching.

We have opportunities that might only be found in rare locations in the US, and we have them in good measure because of the work of people like yourself. I for one am extremely grateful.

Have a great year Michael.

 

[alancooper]

That’s good to hear. Carnica have a bad reputation often dubbed swarmolians. It’s not true. They just need active management.

Active management? - reads cryptic to me. Can you clarify?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Active management? - reads cryptic to me. Can you clarify?

Yes You have to be ahead of the bees particularly in giving them space and moving frames around.

 

[rolande]

That’s good to hear. Carnica have a bad reputation often dubbed swarmolians. It’s not true. They just need active management.

I'd agree that it's not good practice to tarnish an entire subspecies but my thankfully limited experience of Slovenian carnica in recent years is that they've required considerably more attention & work than the bees I'm used to; general mongrrels with some buckfast input, this suggests to me that they may indeed have been more swarmy than some other bees.

All of this is in total contrast to German/Austrian line carnica which we sourced in the mid/late 90s from Iacopi in North Gloucestershire - we also had an AI queen from a chap (who's name I can't remember) in Henley on Thames, again, no excessive swarming tendency.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd agree that it's not good practice to tarnish an entire subspecies but my thankfully limited experience of Slovenian carnica in recent years is that they've required considerably more attention & work than the bees I'm used to; general mongrrels with some buckfast input, this suggests to me that they may indeed have been more swarmy than some other bees.

All of this is in total contrast to German/Austrian line carnica which we sourced in the mid/late 90s from Iacopi in North Gloucestershire - we also had an AI queen from a chap (who's name I can't remember) in Henley on Thames, again, no excessive swarming tendency.

Good to hear.

 

[madasafish]

Last year I gave my one new Carnica queen lots of space very early and kept adding boxes: they swarmed on six supers despite two empty supers. I have almost written them off as a result.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Maybe two broods and chequerboard the brood nest?

 

[madasafish]

Maybe two broods and chequerboard the brood nest?

Two broods when using Lang jumbos as I do equates to hernias lifting 40kg.

 

[Erichalfbee]

 

[Norton]

Here we are two weeks after the original post. There are a number of dead bees in front of the hive -virus victims?, but as can be clearly seen only a couple of uncapped cells and the bees appear to be very healthy.