Varroa Alert

[Erichalfbee]

You're right (though I know you don't need me to say so).
From the LASI website, https://www.sussex.ac.uk/lasi/documents/pamphlet-sublimationtreatmentoxalicacid-a4-1page-2016.pdf
'It is best to check hives immediately or a few days before application and remove or scrape out any small patches of capped brood.'

Well I have as much faith in that as I have in their hygienic queens having tried two

 

[pargyle]

Well I have as much faith in that as I have in their hygienic queens having tried two

I think their hearts are in the right place - not sure their science is though ....

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think their hearts are in the right place - not sure their science is though ....

Im sure Philip. Never doubted that.

 

[Ian123]

I think their hearts are in the right place - not sure their science is though ....

That will be a relief to those that contributed to funding I’m sure

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

He may have just followed on from the original trickle research/advice that also advised removal of brood. And wasn’t the lasi work done solely as a winter treatment? Ian

Doesn't change the fact that he was adamant on removing all the brood and would not even consider looking at it as an autumn treatment over a brood cycle

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Yes they did/do - I've asked the question directly of Ratnieks when he was on his Queen selling tour and he was specific in his expectation that beekeepers should open up midwinter and rip out any brood. He blankly refused to contemplate or even discuss the 3x5 system.

Ratnieks may not have been the lead researcher on the project. Hasan Al Toufailia and Luciano Scandian worked on the project as well. It was done largely in January 2013 and the final bit, where they honed in on 2.25g of OA for the best results with vaporising, was done in December 2013, so it was clearly tested as a winter (i.e. broodless) treatment. Maybe the other two did not tell Ratnieks of the reason why they removed the brood - the cock-up theory of academic publishing?

The reason that I thought that "I don't think they really expected beekeepers to open up their hives, lift out frames and remove all brood as a matter of routine" was because towards the end of their paper they said "The third advantage of sublimation is that it is the simplest method, and quick. In particular, because it does not need the beekeeper to open the hive, it is less work and well suited for use in winter (Radeetzki & Barman) when colonies are broodless but not normally opened for inspection." (my emphasis!). Why write that if they expect beekeepers to open the hive remove the frames to remove any brood before sublimating?

As for Ratnieks not wanting to contemplate the 3x5 system, I do not understand why not. In the discussion of the results, they say "The results clearly show that sublimation is the best method in that it gives greater varroa mortality at lower doses, and results in no harm to the colonies". Either sublimation harms them or not - they should not make a statement like that in a published academic paper then get up on their hind legs and say something different with no evidence, at a public meeting.

CVB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ratnieks may not have been the lead researcher on the project. Hasan Al Toufailia and Luciano Scandian worked on the project as well. It was done largely in January 2013 and the final bit, where they honed in on 2.25g of OA for the best results with vaporising, was done in December 2013, so it was clearly tested as a winter (i.e. broodless) treatment. Maybe the other two did not tell Ratnieks of the reason why they removed the brood - the cock-up theory of academic publishing?

The reason that I thought that "I don't think they really expected beekeepers to open up their hives, lift out frames and remove all brood as a matter of routine" was because towards the end of their paper they said "The third advantage of sublimation is that it is the simplest method, and quick. In particular, because it does not need the beekeeper to open the hive, it is less work and well suited for use in winter (Radeetzki & Barman) when colonies are broodless but not normally opened for inspection." (my emphasis!). Why write that if they expect beekeepers to open the hive remove the frames to remove any brood before sublimating?

As for Ratnieks not wanting to contemplate the 3x5 system, I do not understand why not. In the discussion of the results, they say "The results clearly show that sublimation is the best method in that it gives greater varroa mortality at lower doses, and results in no harm to the colonies". Either sublimation harms them or not - they should not make a statement like that in a published academic paper then get up on their hind legs and say something different with no evidence, at a public meeting.

CVB

Ratnieks was the lead on the research and was pretty specific about his beliefs on ripping out the brood, as well as it being something he does often to his own bees.
And there are people on here who were witness to him adamantly refusing even to contemplate the 3x5 system.
If you'd have met him (and I have a few times) you would quickly realise what an arrogant and dogmatic person he is.

 

[Erichalfbee]

And there are people on here who were witness to him adamantly refusing even to contemplate the 3x5 system.
If you'd have met him (and I have a few times) you would quickly realise what an arrogant and dogmatic person he is.

Yes me.
He flatly refused to discuss it even after being asked four times by different people.
Emyr and I talked to him briefly. He doesn’t look you in the eye. He gives the impression of disdain but more so he reminds me of somebody on the end of the spectrum and maybe just can’t cope with challenge unless he is prepared? Quite a few other questions were ignored too

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

He lost all respect from me when he started live streaming a football match in the middle of Tom Seeley's talk at Aberystwyth University

 

[Apple]

Yes me.
He flatly refused to discuss it even after being asked four times by different people.
Emyr and I talked to him briefly. He doesn’t look you in the eye. He gives the impression of disdain but more so he reminds me of somebody on the end of the spectrum and maybe just can’t cope with challenge unless he is prepared? Quite a few other questions were ignored too

I met him once, he bought me a coffee and was more interested in my Triumph Tripple motorcycle than bees!
Nadelik Lowen

 

[user 819]

As far as I'm concerned these academic's should have an open mind and not be dismissing other theories /methodogy without at first trialing them. Problem is some follow their guidelines hook line and sinker and also developed the same bias towards other metbods. I see this on the local BKA whatsup group with cutting and pasting links spouting the same regurgitated rubbish, their was a lady beek in the group who was going to vape once she had opened and culled any brood.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

As far as I'm concerned these academic's should have an open mind and not be dismissing other theories /methodigy without at first trialing them. Problem is some follow their guidelines hook line and sinker and also developed the same bias towards other metbods. I see this on the local BKA whatsup group with cutting and pasting links spouting the same regurgitated rubbish, their was a lady beek in the group who was going to vape once she had opened and culled any brood.

Exactly! How many academics have written learned papers over the last 60 years and swallowed 'varroa feed on the hemolymph of bees' without questioning it until a young graduate student in the USA thought "that does not like a blood suckers digestive system and that's not what I'd expect as poo from a blood-sucking insect - it's the wrong colour and too dry!" Exceptional researchers are few and far between so we should all be thankful for Dr Samuel Ramsey and his perspicacity. I wonder if he can be persuaded to do more honey bee research along the OA treatment lines?

CVB

 

[user 819]

A well known BBKA master beek and academic in my area had a closed mind when discussing honey as possibly having an effect on hay fever sufferers and dismissed it out of hand as there were/are no papers or scientific work on it use or effect. How ever I did get them to at least change their thinking as my wife was using it daily in her horse feed to help the poor nag that had symptoms and she was paying expensively with vet's meds.

 

[elainemary]

As well as researching best frequency of treatments (eg 3x5; 3x7), I’ve also tried to find out if any work has been done on multiple sublimation rounds and it’s effects on colony health (not withstanding that many if you report no ill effects). The only piece I could find is the link below. The research abstract concludes no negative effects of 2 treatments but 2 weeks apart. Also demonstrates increased efficacy, though again like the LASI research colonies were Broodless.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2018.1454035

 

[Boston Bees]

If people couldn't do a midwinter treatment (just pretend for a minute) then what treatment regime would you all follow?

A well known BBKA master beek and academic in my area had a closed mind when discussing honey as possibly having an effect on hay fever sufferers and dismissed it out of hand as there were/are no papers or scientific work on it use or effect. How ever I did get her to at least change her thinking as my wife was using it daily in her horse feed to help the poor nag that had symptoms and she was paying expensively with vet's meds.

Sorry, you convinced this beekeeper that honey helps with human hayfever (for which there is indeed no evidence, and not even any logic) by saying that your wife gives it to her horse? And this argument worked on her?

I think she was right to ask for some actual scientific evidence myself, and I am not sure that your wife's horse counts as that. No disrespect to the horse.

 

[pargyle]

Oddly enough ... one of our former labradors had a serious arthritic spine.... an expensive orthopaedic vet operated, separated the vertebrae that were impacting on his spinal nerve and he was fine for a couple of years and then it came back. The vet told us he was too old to face a second operation which may not be totally successful. At the advice of a friend we took him to Chris Day who was a homeopathic vet - he suggested acupuncture and I thought .. Yeh ... more money down the drain (at the time I figured that acupuncture was more in the mind than a body healer and for a dog ? You can imagine my thoughts ...) He stuck some needles in the dog, told us he'd go to sleep for a while and when he woke up he would feel better .. The dog, when we arrived, had to be lifted out of the car and could not even get up the two steps to the vets surgery ... The dog laid down, went to sleep and a while later Chris came back in, the dog woke up ... the needles were removed and the pain had clearly gone, he bounced down the steps on his way out and before I could lift him had jumped into the back of the car. So .. I changed my mind...

The other labrador we had at the time had a serious skin allergy .. our local vet had tried everything including steroids which had made him worse. We took him to see Chris Day who gave him some homeopathic pills to take ... within a week the skin allergy had started to clear up .. Chris increased the dose and it went altogether ... we kept him on them as advised but on one occasion ran out -within a couple of days the eczema was back and the dog was scratching himself rotten .. back on the tablets ... cleared up.

I was a total sceptic ... but animals have no preconceived ideas and you could not possibly think that a dog had any ability to consider a placebo ... I'm a believer.

I've been a hay fever sufferer for years ... really bad, some mornings I could not open my eyes, Antihistamines worked to some extent. Since I've been keeping bees and regularly eating my own honey my hay fever symptoms have been very slight - I still take Loratadine but my honey seems to have more effect.

Sometimes you just can't explain things and have to accept ...

 

[Murox]

Free of dogma and beyond narrow rationality, economics and hard technology is place of renewal, potential and creativity.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oddly enough ... one of our former labradors had a serious arthritic spine.... an expensive orthopaedic vet operated, separated the vertebrae that were impacting on his spinal nerve and he was fine for a couple of years and then it came back. The vet told us he was too old to face a second operation which may not be totally successful. At the advice of a friend we took him to Chris Day who was a homeopathic vet - he suggested acupuncture and I thought .. Yeh ... more money down the drain (at the time I figured that acupuncture was more in the mind than a body healer and for a dog ? You can imagine my thoughts ...) He stuck some needles in the dog, told us he'd go to sleep for a while and when he woke up he would feel better .. The dog, when we arrived, had to be lifted out of the car and could not even get up the two steps to the vets surgery ... The dog laid down, went to sleep and a while later Chris came back in, the dog woke up ... the needles were removed and the pain had clearly gone, he bounced down the steps on his way out and before I could lift him had jumped into the back of the car. So .. I changed my mind...

The other labrador we had at the time had a serious skin allergy .. our local vet had tried everything including steroids which had made him worse. We took him to see Chris Day who gave him some homeopathic pills to take ... within a week the skin allergy had started to clear up .. Chris increased the dose and it went altogether ... we kept him on them as advised but on one occasion ran out -within a couple of days the eczema was back and the dog was scratching himself rotten .. back on the tablets ... cleared up.

I was a total sceptic ... but animals have no preconceived ideas and you could not possibly think that a dog had any ability to consider a placebo ... I'm a believer.

I've been a hay fever sufferer for years ... really bad, some mornings I could not open my eyes, Antihistamines worked to some extent. Since I've been keeping bees and regularly eating my own honey my hay fever symptoms have been very slight - I still take Loratadine but my honey seems to have more effect.

Sometimes you just can't explain things and have to accept ...

I suffer from a dry mouth as a consequence of radiotherapy.
Acupuncture was suggested by a friend so I went open minded but unconvinced I should be even trying. I mean...how can sticking two needles in your ears and one in each index finger tip (ouch!) possibly do anything?
Within minutes I had a runny nose and by the time I got to the car afterwards I had a mouthful of saliva.
There are things is this world that are difficult to understand but they still work

 

[Boston Bees]

There are things is this world that are difficult to understand but they still work

No doubt. But more often it is either a coincidental improvement in the condition that would have happened anyway, or the placebo effect (which has been scientifically proven to work well).

 

[happyculteur]

edit. Just sobered up.