Varroa Alert

[Curly green finger's]

Essential oils aren’t produced naturally !
Just an observation from the brain dead . To the snake oil salesmen

Must be all that mary Jane!

 

[Swarm]

Are essential oils really essential?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Are essential oils really essential?

Or necessary?

 

[elainemary]

Don't mock the braindead at Christmas.
(any other time is fine)

Aw that’s a bit unfair! At least asked for opinions. And was given them in spades

 

[elainemary]

All, re multiple applications of oxalic acid, Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive. It would need 8 weekly treatments to just about eradicate which would not be good for the bees!! Each time a colony is vaped, even tho much better than dribbling, still causes stress to the bees and may harm brood there??Key as others have mentioned is monitoring for signs of brood uncapping & waiting til weather and cappings evidence suggests no brood is present. V cold snap happening now and last week, so in a week or so maybe the best time to treat, rather than keep doing every few days.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

as others have mentioned is monitoring for signs of brood uncapping & waiting til weather and cappings evidence suggests no brood is present. V cold snap happening now and last week, so in a week or so maybe the best time to treat, rather than keep doing every few days.

Bit late for your winter bees though, it nees to be done in September otherwise the Christmas treatment is fairly pointless

Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive.

So imagine if he did the treatment properly - three times five days apart?

 

[pargyle]

All, re multiple applications of oxalic acid, Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive. It would need 8 weekly treatments to just about eradicate which would not be good for the bees!! Each time a colony is vaped, even tho much better than dribbling, still causes stress to the bees and harms any brood there. Key as others have mentioned is monitoring for signs of brood uncapping & waiting til weather and cappings evidence suggests no brood is present. V cold snap happening now and last week, so in a week or so maybe the best time to treat, rather than keep doing every few days.

"Each time a colony is vaped, even tho much better than dribbling, still causes stress to the bees and harms any brood there" - I'm not sure this is true ... I've never seen bees stressd by vaping and I've never seen any brood thrown out afterwards ?

"All, re multiple applications of oxalic acid, Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive". Again, this flies in the face of the experience of many committed 'vapers' - perhaps the 3 x 7 days is where the problem lies - most recommend 3 x 5 days for vaping treatments and the efficacy levels are up in the 90% bracket.

"It would need 8 weekly treatments to just about eradicate which would not be good for the bees!!" I don't know about it being bad for the bees but I think such intensive work would be pretty bad for the beekeeper. If I had to resort to this level of treatment I would either be looking at my methodology or wondering why my bees seemed to be so consistently infested.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Each time a colony is vaped, even tho much better than dribbling, still causes stress to the bees and harms any brood there.

And yet the LASI detailed studies shows no harm whatsoever to the brood, and little to the adult bees

 

[Erichalfbee]

Agree
The vapes need to be at five day intervals. Three times is usually sufficient but if mites are still dropping in numbers after the third I do a fourth four days after.

 

[gmonag]

All, re multiple applications of oxalic acid, Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive. It would need 8 weekly treatments to just about eradicate which would not be good for the bees!! ...

Randy Oliver is a smart guy, so I wonder why he chose that regime. It does not make any sense at all.

 

[elainemary]

"Each time a colony is vaped, even tho much better than dribbling, still causes stress to the bees and harms any brood there" - I'm not sure this is true ... I've never seen bees stressd by vaping and I've never seen any brood thrown out afterwards ?

"All, re multiple applications of oxalic acid, Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive". Again, this flies in the face of the experience of many committed 'vapers' - perhaps the 3 x 7 days is where the problem lies - most recommend 3 x 5 days for vaping treatments and the efficacy levels are up in the 90% bracket.

"It would need 8 weekly treatments to just about eradicate which would not be good for the bees!!" I don't know about it being bad for the bees but I think such intensive work would be pretty bad for the beekeeper. If I had to resort to this level of treatment I would either be looking at my methodology or wondering why my bees seemed to be so consistently infested.

Relevant slide from Randy Oliver’s presentation on his sublimation trials every 7 days (perhaps 5 days is more effective but he didn’t look at this)

Plus relevant table from the research review of the effects of different varroacides on honeybees
Full report here
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...health-A-review.pdf?origin=publication_detail

 

[pargyle]

Firstly,

I'd agree with most of the contents of the paper ... but ...the only reference to Oxalic acid by sublimation is:

sublimation 3.6g per hive ↑ heat shock proteins in bee brains, a molecular indicator of stress

3.6 gms per hive is about one and a half times what is needed for a 14 x 12 hive - probably twice what is needed for a national. Heat stress ... well, if they were using a pan sublimator through the entrance the odds are that a few bees could get fried little wonder there are signs of heat stress.

The study is largely a review of other papers or research ... Ratnieks is quoted but the interesting thing is the comparison table between the various treatments and OA by sublimation offers less detriment to the bees than any other treatment reviewed. There is an interesting quote " Lastly, the method of application and dose also has a decisive effect on the subsequent strength of the colony. Bee colonies treated by oxalic acid via trickling or spraying had a lower brood area then those treated by sublimation (28)."

Which matches my own (and I'm sure others who use sublimators) observations.

Randy Oliver should try 3 x 5 ... However .... his graph shows that after three and half weeks of weekly treatment the mite load is down from 100% to 20% ... that's not bad for a treatment that is ignoring the brood cycle frequency,

So thank you for this ... supports just about everything that anyone who is using OA by sublimation is saying ...

 

[Buzzlodge]

Are essential oils really essential?

No. The name derives from Essence, meaning that they smell.
Amazing the number of people that think they are like vitamins.

 

[Into the lions den]

Some years ago from the USA (where else could it be?) there was a list of proven effective varroa treatments, all with supporting statements of efficacy from people who had used them. Pretty high upon the list was 'Prayer'.

Several very insistent supporters of it. The reason advanced for it not working in other cases was simply that the person doing the praying (presumably the beekeeper) did not believe ENOUGH! Oddly enough I never saw any reliable studies that demonstrated varroa severity in your bees was inversely proportional to your religious commitment.

Been a few similarly faith (with a small f) based methods/strategies have erupted over the years and after attracting lots of adherants slowly fade away.

Non varroa toxic essential oil exposure as a method of varroa control is a little bit like treating cancer by aromatherapy. Yet some do believe it can be done.

 

[elainemary]

"Each time a colony is vaped, even tho much better than dribbling, still causes stress to the bees and harms any brood there" - I'm not sure this is true ... I've never seen bees stressd by vaping and I've never seen any brood thrown out afterwards ?

"All, re multiple applications of oxalic acid, Randy Oliver has done some work which shows after 3 applications 7 days apart the varroa infestation drops by just 75% if brood still in the hive". Again, this flies in the face of the experience of many committed 'vapers' - perhaps the 3 x 7 days is where the problem lies - most recommend 3 x 5 days for vaping treatments and the efficacy levels are up in the 90% bracket.

"It would need 8 weekly treatments to just about eradicate which would not be good for the bees!!" I don't know about it being bad for the bees but I think such intensive work would be pretty bad for the beekeeper. If I had to resort to this level of treatment I would either be looking at my methodology or wondering why my bees seemed to be so consistently infested.

Relevant slide from Randy Oliver’s presentation on his sublimation trials every 7 days (perhaps 5 days is more effective but he didn’t look at this)

Plus relevant table from the research review of the effects of different varroacides on honeybees
Full report here
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...health-A-review.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Firstly,

I'd agree with most of the contents of the paper ... but ...the only reference to Oxalic acid by sublimation is:

sublimation 3.6g per hive ↑ heat shock proteins in bee brains, a molecular indicator of stress

3.6 gms per hive is about one and a half times what is needed for a 14 x 12 hive - probably twice what is needed for a national. Heat stress ... well, if they were using a pan sublimator through the entrance the odds are that a few bees could get fried little wonder there are signs of heat stress.

The study is largely a review of other papers or research ... Ratnieks is quoted but the interesting thing is the comparison table between the various treatments and OA by sublimation offers less detriment to the bees than any other treatment reviewed. There is an interesting quote " Lastly, the method of application and dose also has a decisive effect on the subsequent strength of the colony. Bee colonies treated by oxalic acid via trickling or spraying had a lower brood area then those treated by sublimation (28)."

Which matches my own (and I'm sure others who use sublimators) observations.

Randy Oliver should try 3 x 5 ... However .... his graph shows that after three and half weeks of weekly treatment the mite load is down from 100% to 20% ... that's not bad for a treatment that is ignoring the brood cycle frequency,

So thank you for this ... supports just about everything that anyone who is using OA by sublimation is saying ...

Thanks good to combine your practical experience with the research. I’ve looked into it a lot to help decide what treatments to use next year. Was worried at the outset about multiple doses of oxalic, but after reading the research and listening to you all on the forum about what you’ve done over the years, this has helped reassure about using more than one dose of oxalic by sublimation. Need to sit down now and work out for myself the logic of 5 vs 7 day intervals between treatments; based on the days mites are in cells (12), days the sublimated gas works for (3), number of days from emergence before mites invade the next cell and frequency of treatment (5 vs 7 days). Can feel some maths modelling coming on! Unless anyone can shortcut this for me....
Merry Xmas everyone
Elaine

 

[GuyNir]

Elaine, time in cells will be longer, more like 15 days, no? (drone cells)

 

[Murox]

For bees to become fully developed adults it takes around

• 21 days for workers
• around 24 days for drones

Mites stay in brood cells with worker bees for 11 days. Drones 14 days. Mites attach to other bees to "travel" 5 to 11 days before they start entering cells to lay eggs.

 

[Arfermo]

Are essential oils really essential?

Silly question - of course necessary for those that want them. Keeps them from other mischief?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can feel some maths modelling coming on! Unless anyone can shortcut this for me....

Simple - do it every five days
Why disbelieve (or reinvent) something that has been modelled, trialled, used regularly for years and proven effective.

 

[drex]

Even though nobody is quite certain of how oxalic and thymol kills the mite, resistance to these is unlikely, but could happen. Due to my medical background, it makes sense to me to ring the changes. I use thymol in Autumn and one dose of OAV in Nov/Dec. Not had any losses from varroa yet.
If counts did rise unexpectedly I would use extra OAV doses