Using starter strips - is it a recipe for disaster?

[warts]

Hi All

I have recently read in a bee book that you can use super frames with starter strips of wax as a form of swarm prevention.

So here are a few questions I have, and would appreciate input from any of you more knowledgeable people

1. How successful is using starter strips as a form of swarm prevention (ie, the book states that by creating a cavity, the bees will focus on this, and not swarming)?

2. In my limited experience, bees love building all manner of additions of wax structures given half the chance. So is it likely that I if I used starter strips I will find 'waves' or patterns of wax that make it difficult to work (eg lifting out the frames from the super)?

3. I am currently on OSR - so partly think that the starter strip method would be trickier to remove honey from - is this the case, or am I missing something really obvious? (please note, I have 'kept' bees for a few years now, but still consider myself a rank amateur - keen yes, but what I would call 'experienced', oh dear me no - therefore KISS approach usually my first line of attack)

After reading the extract from the book, I did wonder about the use of starter strips in general, rather than just as swarm prevention, hence more than question 1. I partly think starter strips would be good for cut comb, and also more cost effective than full sheets. But would appreciate more knowledgable input, before I consider going down this route, even on trial basis.

Sorry for long post

Sally

 

[moo]

Bees build parallel combs so starter strips will form nice straight natural comb as long as they have a guide ie. Placed between 2 drawn out combs or full sheets of foundation. If using it for swarm control keep an eye that they don't just pack it with nectar as that tells you they are really in the mood!

___________________________________
brothermoo.wordpress.com

 

[Pete D]

Hi, not too experienced myself but in answer to your questions ;
1,
I dont think starter strips in a super will stop a hive from swarming. Yes it might make them busy for a couple of days drawing it whilst there is a flow on. This super isn't for extra brood space so I dont think it will have much effect. I believe if they are swarmy bees and want to swarm then they will, your best option is to get it done on your terms.

2
Some people on here do foundationless beekeeping and get on alright with it. Personally I use frames and foundation as it seems to make for a tidier brood nest with evenly spaced combs. I find even then they tend to overdraw some frames and underdraw the neighbouring one which means they only fit in the same sequence.

3
Extracting osr frames I find ok as long as I stay on top of them. If I leave some too late an extra long spin at flat out does a reasonable job unless its set solid. Not sure how starter strip frames would stand up to this.

Cut comb I sell is normall uniform size and shape from a frame with thin foundation, this usually gives me pieces of the same weight which makes it easier for packaging.
I tend to try and KISS and for me thats foundation sheets.
If you are keen just try a frame or 2 between your normal frames to see how it goes.
Good luck

 

[Tom Bick]

I don't think fitting starter strips in your supers will reduce swarming. You may find that during good nectar flows the bees will build comb faster than working foundation.I If you go with the starter strips then you will be advised to wire the frames to strengthen them for extraction or without wires for cut comb. I recon the bees only use approx 50% of the foundation and this also gives strength to the comb where as the midrib of natural comb is as thin as the cell walls.

 

[warts]

Hi Moo and Pete

I like your idea of placing between two sheets of foundation / drawn comb. I may try this for general honey collection, producing cut comb as well as honey from wired frames in one super without over committing to lots of cut comb or all extracted honey. I hadn't thought of mix and matching.

And Pete
Yes, to be honest, my (limited) experience is that if they mean to swarm, then then will. So thanks for the confirmation. Thanks also for other comments, greatly appreciated, although I do not sell my honey, I do give it away to friends and family, so it would at least look better if the cut comb is uniform in size and weight.

Again, greatly appreciated

Sally

 

[warts]

Hi Tom
Thanks for your comments. It seems so far that a cavity is not going to assist with swarm prevention. Which is worth knowing so I do not waste energy and time trying it. However, I have to admit I am not 100% certain what you mean by the sentence below. Sorry to be a pain (I have interpretation issues), can you just elaborate on what you mean please. For example, do you mean that by not using all foundation there is less weight to warp/break the comb?

I recon the bees only use approx 50% of the foundation and this also gives strength to the comb where as the midrib of natural comb is as thin as the cell walls.

Thank you in advance

Sally

 

[Tom Bick]

I have run my hives foundationless now for a few years and over this time have looked at plenty of combs from foundation and foundationless. It's clear to me that when you cut a section of the two types of comb that the mid rib on foundation is very thick and when compared to a sheet of foundation approx half the thickness. So I am assuming that the bees only make use of approx 50% of the foundation. This thick midrib helps in strengthening the comb.

The foundation also makes the base of the cell almost flat where as without foundation the midrib is far from flat and as thin as the cell wall this can make the combs brittle and it's easy to push your finger right through the comb.

I am going to do some comb change this year and will be melting down some combs from foundation and no foundation and think it may be interesting on how much wax I recover from the two types of comb.

 

[pargyle]

I run my hive foundationless ... Tom is right about foundationless comb being much thinner than that built on foundation. During today's inspection I cut off some large bits of free comb they had built on the bottom of a couple of frames and they were very light .. the central spine you can almost see through it's that thin .... Beautiful though !

I put two empty frames in just over a week ago and they have completely built one frame out and started filling it and the other is about half built. No starter strips just a triangular wedge of timber driibbled with beeswax.

See Frames 11/11a an 4/14a - the first two in the set:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/sets/72157643951385343/

 

[warts]

Thanks Tom for explaining. I can see why accidents may happen with non foundation comb - which will need extra thought and care when I have a go at a starter strip amongst foundation.

Much appreciated

Sally

 

[warts]

Hi Pargyle
Excellent photos! And good to know there is agreement re the thinness of foundation (I know it shouldn't but my heart sinks a little when there appears no consensus).

I see you have some frames with brood in. How do you examine frames without it all collapsing, ie what system do you use...though I noticed the ingenious 'frame holder' that appears built into the hive lid...is this how you do it?

Also, for future reference, how deep is the wooden triangle? The reason I ask is because when I have more time on my hands, and a lot more experience, I would like to trial a more bee driven hive, ie they have more input into comb size and shape etc. I know I am a long way off that at the moment, but am always keen to learn new ideas and views, and am happily storing ideas for future consideration.

Regards

Sally

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sally, last year I got a whole super foundation less which I used for cut comb.
I did this over two supers, alternating starter strips with drawn comb. It worked a treat. The drawn frames were good enough for me and none of my customers complained

 

[drex]

I run mainly nationals but also a top bar. As long as afresh top bar with starter strip is inserted between two already drawn frames it is usually drawn straight. The hive needs to be level so the bees make the comb vertical. Comb out of atop bar is an engineering marvel and beautiful to look at. I have learned a lot about bees and beekeeping from my tbh

 

[warts]

Thanks EricA and Drex

The key seems to be alternating between existing and new. I am (sadly) getting a little excited about trying this. So thank you!

EricA - I hope my little lot can match the quality of your bees. Look forward to trying to see if mine looks as good.

And Drex, I must admit, the idea of a TBH is certainly on my 'to try' list...and I think I might learn a lot too!

Kind Regards

Sally

 

[Tom Bick]

I have learned a lot about bees and beekeeping from my tbh

I agree with that and not just from a TBH the bees have plenty to teach us. Sometimes there is to much trying to push shove and stress the bees going on.

 

[pargyle]

I agree with that and not just from a TBH the bees have plenty to teach us. Sometimes there is to much trying to push shove and stress the bees going on.

This just about sums up what drove my thoughts when I started to think about becoming a beekeeper and it still features highly in my beekeeping philosophy .... but I've come to understand that you can still retain your principles and tread a moderate path

 

[MattC]

Bumping this as about to extract and remembered that I've got several foundationless frames in the mix (combination of accident and design- was short on foundation and thought I'd give starter strips a try). I'll probably want to try cut comb with 1 or 2 of them, but will there be a problem with collapsing frames with gentle spinning in a radial extractor?

 

[ratcatcher]

hi wart, dunno how I missed seeing this post when it first started, I currently have four hives in my out apairy, a mixture of commercial and rose hives, and Im running them all with wax starter strips, even the brood box, although they do have around 5 full foundation sheets in too,

 

[Dan Job]

Quick question, those of you who run foundationless, is this just in the super or in the brood box as well? and if so do you wire the frames?
Dan.

 

[ratcatcher]

Quick question, those of you who run foundationless, is this just in the super or in the brood box as well? and if so do you wire the frames?
Dan.

in my brood boxes in commercials, I use 5 full sheets and 7 starter strips, I will in future put in a bottom wire, but on my first box I didnt, making those frames unstable to turn, until the bees had fully drawn out the comb to the bottom, on my rose hives, no wires will be used as the frames are shorter

http://youtu.be/SLR1u0WfmdU

 

[fatshark]

Quick question, those of you who run foundationless, is this just in the super or in the brood box as well? and if so do you wire the frames?
Dan.

A Google search for foundationless frames will turn up a range of solutions for this. I use 15kg fishing line, with three horizontal strands for National brood frames. Usually the line is incorporated fully into the drawn comb. I've had a 1-2% 'failure' rate in over 100 foundationless frames used this year - either they failed to incorporate the line at all, or they went their own way and ignored the starter strip. Sometimes they work around one strand of line, but incorporate the others. Usually this is corrected later in the season as they rework the comb. All my bait hives have been full of foundationless frames (well, 10 + an old black frame on one side) and have been drawn out beautifully, straight and true.