urgent advice please, swarm reluctant to go in my first national

[starcana]

Hi, bear with me! I got a call this morning re swarm in a dustbin in church yard. checked, good size swarm very at home in said ((full) dustbin. Back ate 8 tonight to collect. easy, brought dustbin home to field. But it's my last empty hive, a National when I've only used WBCs before. boards and white cloth at the ready, laid dustbin out got them onto cloth. No movement for first almost hour. then started to go in. Very slowly. then loads gathered around entrance. some further down cloth kept moving cloth . Probably two thirds gone in, large bunch around entrance not moving so as it was getting dark I kept trying to clear the entrance softly with brush for those who would go in, those at bottom of cloth that weren't moving up at all I put in top of hive and have just come into house leaving a clump around the size of two fists at the entrance.

Now on my WBCs the entrance gap goes right along the front. On this national that I was given by a retiring, every experienced old beekeeper (all in good condition) the entrance hole is much smaller and only in the middle.

Did I do right? what else could/should I have done? I'll have to see in the morning whether they all made it in tonight. My guess is those at the bottom of the cloth were too hungry/weak to move up as they must have been in the dustbin a fair time as there was comb with brood in. Oh yeh, I removed one of the 11 frames and put the comb with brood in that gap before anything else. Was that the right thing to do and should I leave it there now or put the frame back in in a few days. there wouldn't have been room for the large comb had I not removed a frame. I'm totally new to a national hive so all help appreciated. thanks.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

too late now - but I would have opened the hive, removed half the frames and just shaken them all in placing the rest of the frames gently on top of them until they settle down in place. The old white sheet/walking in mullarkei is good theatre but that's about all

 

[itma]

I'd suggest putting your bit of comb into a frame without foundation. Hold it in place with string, wire or … rubber bands! If you just leave it in the hive, it is going to result in a real mess.

National and WBC use the same frames and are very similar internally, though the National takes one more brood frame making the boxes externally square.
The National's entrance usually has a 20mm square bar across it (often held in place by propolis). Typically it has a small cutout for an entrance, but the whole bar can be removed for a strong colony on a honeyflow. Removing the bar, rotating it 90º and reinserting it closes the entrance for moving - though some folk make different sized entrances on the different sides …

Like JBM, I tend to shake (rather than walk) swarms in (but I actually prefer to collect using a polynuc as a skep and, after adding frames, leave them in it for a while - totally unspectacular and terribly easy!)

 

[starcana]

thanks Itma - very helpful response, I'll do that with the comb tomorrow. But what about those still just sitting at the entrance after dark - what's you're bet on where they'll be in the morning - surely they won't stay there all night?

 

[BeeJayBee]

My guess is those at the bottom of the cloth were too hungry/weak to move up as they must have been in the dustbin a fair time as there was comb with brood in.
If there was comb with brood then the chances are there were also stores. There's plenty of forage around at the moment, they won't raise brood without being able to feed it.

Oh yeh, I removed one of the 11 frames and put the comb with brood in that gap before anything else. Was that the right thing to do and should I leave it there now or put the frame back in in a few days. there wouldn't have been room for the large comb had I not removed a frame.
Yes, it was the right thing to do at the time because it was late and probably getting too cool to try to tie it into an empty frame. Chances are the queen was on it.

If it's warm overnight they might stay outside, my colonies have had bees outside overnight for a while.

 

[starcana]

Update good news and not so good. At 7 am just a few bees flying around outside the hive, maybe a couple of dozen.
Have just gone back,removed, white cloth and boards and opened up ready to tie comb to empty frame. Too late, I think. A mass of bees on comb at end of box where I'd removed frame (and, good news, lots of bees on centre frames so starting to work on foundation, I hope). but bees far too teasy and far too many for me to take comb out to put on empty frame, so had to leave it. They've been messed about with enough for now so my plan is to leave for a few days, then check if syrup needs topping up and decide what to do about comb then.
does that sound like a plan or a disaster waiting to happen?

 

[ratcatcher]

sounds good, I went back to one of my hives and re secured comb into a frame, slightly different scenario, they had built double comb, but just pick it up, with bees, place in frame, trim if necessary and put a couple of elastic bands on, mine had fixed it within a week and chewed through the bands

 

[starcana]

thanks rat catcher - the pics are very helpful there is one very large piece of comb and a few small ones that I put in the 'gap'. can I do it tomorrow when they may be a bit happier/settled (and I'm not so knackered after a few hours only of on/off sleep worrying about them

 

[alldigging]

Have bands ready on an empty frame for fixing it on.

 

[JohnyP]

I've seen elsewhere that you can use masking tape to secure brood into frame. It gets chewed up and removed by the bees after the comb has been joined to the frame by the bees.
If you use clips or rubber bands then they're either in the comb permanently or you have a hell of a job removing them.

 

[MartinL]

too late now - The old white sheet/walking in mullarkei is good theatre but that's about all

How far is the Church from your apiary?

Was it a swarm from your bees? If not I wouldn't be putting them in with my bees!

 

[starcana]

well, have bitten the bullet (as I knew I'd have to) and done it, albeit not very successfully - the comb was soft and squidgy and broke and bent as I picked it out, so lots of smallish pieces. Managed to get some with brood on my criss cross elastic banded frame and at least now there is an empty frame in place for them to fill.
No the bees aren't from mine, MartinL, but now three of my four hives have colonies that were collected from swarms and the first two are strong and fine. the chuch is one and a half miles away.

the good news is that those that were displaced as I was messing around, couldn't wait to get back in the entrance - after last nights shenanigans, I was pleased about that.

will now leave the poor little beggars alone for a good few days, to settle and I'm off for a long, hot bath after sleeping restlesslessy between 1 and 5 am only wondering what to do!!!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Lovely relaxing hobby this beekeeping lark innit?
Just hived a swarm which had moved into a bait hive My friend had in the garden there were a few wired frames with starte strips in there as well as a fraqme of drawn comb. Guess what - they'd ignored all that and drawn four combs down from the roof!!!

 

[starcana]

well, they seem pretty settled now so thanks for your advice everyone. brilliant site this - I've done the course, read the books but this is still my first port of call for advice. If only beekeeping was an exact 'science' eh ?