Upgrade to Brood & 1/2 - Now Full of Nectar

[Macdee]

Morning all,

I added a super to a single brood box a week ago, placing it at the bottom.
The frames where already drawn and empty.
The inspection yesterday revealed that they had filled it will nectar - 70%.

I thought that the hive should have expanded the brood nest downwards into the 1/2 brood super.

What did I do wrong ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

put it on the top where it belongs, it's obviously not only beekeepers that think brood and a half is an abomination

 

[Curly green finger's]

put it on the top where it belongs, it's obviously not only beekeepers that think brood and a half is an abomination

Not an abomination but a big pain all the same.
Sounds like the op needs another super on above the brood box.
If the colonys strong and there's a good flow on I would be putting another one on??

 

[enrico]

They didn't need it for brood but they did need nectar storage. That simple.
Trying to be more understanding than some.... Try not to use half broods. They get difficult when swapping frames etc. If you really think they need a bigger brood box, and many don't, then stick to double brood
E

 

[Lancs Lad]

Morning all,

I added a super to a single brood box a week ago, placing it at the bottom.
The frames where already drawn and empty.
The inspection yesterday revealed that they had filled it will nectar - 70%.

I thought that the hive should have expanded the brood nest downwards into the 1/2 brood super.

What did I do wrong ?

You have done nothing wrong, bees naturally bring nectar in to the hive below the brood nest, they then process it to honey and then store it above the brood nest, all you have to do is put a queen excluder on and super and you will find they will move through the queen excluder easily to store the honey in the super.
Without going in to too much detail go to the Welsh beekeepers site and download the PDF by Walley Shaw on managing brood and a half .

 

[Curly green finger's]

You have done nothing wrong, bees naturally bring nectar in to the hive below the brood nest, they then process it to honey and then store it above the brood nest, all you have to do is put a queen excluder on and super and you will find they will move through the queen excluder easily to store the honey in the super.
Without going in to too much detail go to the Welsh beekeepers site and download the PDF by Walley Shaw on managing brood and a half .

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0zlXIRoAuUC_kDoCdO8r7Q

I found this one mainly about swarm control for brood/half... There's some good diagrams on cluster positioning at different times of the year and more.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You have done nothing wrong, bees naturally bring nectar in to the hive below the brood nest, they then process it to honey and then store it above the brood nest, all you have to do is put a queen excluder on and super and you will find they will move through the queen excluder easily to store the honey in the super.
Without going in to too much detail go to the Welsh beekeepers site and download the PDF by Walley Shaw on managing brood and a half .

Bees pass gathered nectar from bee to bee each bee adding enzymes before being placed in a clean cell where air is passed over it to fan moisture away. You can hear hives during a flow sounding like air conditioning units. Are you saying that they make the honey underneath the brood nest then move it as honey above it?
If you put an empty super above the brood box why do you think they might move it there? Could it be that the only reason they put it there is because there was nowhere else?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bees pass gathered nectar from bee to bee each bee adding enzymes before being placed in a clean cell where air is passed over it to fan moisture away. You can hear hives during a flow sounding like air conditioning units. Are you saying that they make the honey underneath the brood nest then move it as honey above it?
If you put an empty super above the brood box why do you think they might move it there? Could it be that the only reason they put it there is because there was nowhere else?

 

[Madge]

Bees pass gathered nectar from bee to bee each bee adding enzymes before being placed in a clean cell where air is passed over it to fan moisture away. You can hear hives during a flow sounding like air conditioning units. Are you saying that they make the honey underneath the brood nest then move it as honey above it?
If you put an empty super above the brood box why do you think they might move it there? Could it be that the only reason they put it there is because there was nowhere else?

Yes, bees do pass nectar from bee to bee - but, as far as I know, they also store it in cells temporarily, and then move the nectar from cell to cell before storing it in the final honey cell for capping.

So, they might have put the nectar in the nadir as first storage space because there wasn't anywhere else - but, equally, they would have put it in a super if there wasn't anywhere else.

 

[drex]

Bees natural instinct is to have honey above the brood. That is why we get a honey arc on some brood frames. However if there is not room enough upstairs they will bung it anywhere. They also do that in a good flow when the nectar is coming in fast, and then if there is room upstairs move it up later

 

[Erichalfbee]

Bees natural instinct is to have honey above the brood. That is why we get a honey arc on some brood frames. However if there is not room enough upstairs they will bung it anywhere. They also do that in a good flow when the nectar is coming in fast, and then if there is room upstairs move it up later

Yes and into the brood nest and we all know what happens then

 

[Lancs Lad]

The answer to what Macdee perceives as a problem is to look at what bees do naturally. They have produced a fantastic way of managing their brood nest, in the vertical combs hanging in a tree cavity they store all the processed honey above the brood and use the cells under the brood area to bring nectar in and store untill they have time to process it and store it above their heads.With this system as the capped honey above increases the brood nest moves down, if they need to use their well earned stores because there is an insufficient flow they will start uncapping the honey and use it, the brood nest will then start moving up to keep the the capped honey just above their heads with a band of pollen inbetween. It can be seen that there are three parts to congestion , lack of space to store honey, lack of space for the brood nest and lack of area for nectar to be brought in. Once this scenario is fullfild apart from social immunity we are on the verge of swarming.
If we manipulate the brood so that we keep the brood just under the queen excluder they will move processed honey through and readily store it in the supers.
Unfortunately on this board we have posters who think everyone should do it their way, a good beekeeper can explain how we manipulate the brood to achieve this regardless of whether the beekeeper is using singlebrood or brood and a half or double brood.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Interesting.
Have you studied natural nests?
And should we be putting our first super underneath ?
It might be interesting to put one top and bottom and see where the bees put their honey.

 

[Murox]

The answer to what Macdee perceives as a problem is to look at what bees do naturally. They have produced a fantastic way of managing their brood nest, in the vertical combs hanging in a tree cavity they store all the processed honey above the brood and use the cells under the brood area to bring nectar in and store untill they have time to process it and store it above their heads.With this system as the capped honey above increases the brood nest moves down, if they need to use their well earned stores because there is an insufficient flow they will start uncapping the honey and use it, the brood nest will then start moving up to keep the the capped honey just above their heads with a band of pollen inbetween. It can be seen that there are three parts to congestion , lack of space to store honey, lack of space for the brood nest and lack of area for nectar to be brought in. Once this scenario is fullfild apart from social immunity we are on the verge of swarming.
If we manipulate the brood so that we keep the brood just under the queen excluder they will move processed honey through and readily store it in the supers.
Unfortunately on this board we have posters who think everyone should do it their way, a good beekeeper can explain how we manipulate the brood to achieve this regardless of whether the beekeeper is using singlebrood or brood and a half or double brood.

You really should read "An Apiary Guide to Swarm Control" by Wally Shaw.

And where do bees put their nectar before 'processing' it into honey?

 

[Lancs Lad]

Interesting.
Have you studied natural nests?
And should we be putting our first super underneath ?
It might be interesting to put one top and bottom and see where the bees put their honey.

I've never studied natural nests, but over 40 years ago when I started it was common practice once a head of honey was forming under the queen excluder you moved the shallow under the deep brood it's a perfectly good way of pre-emptive swarming. Even now I'm all double brood on every second or third inspection I will move brood from the bottom box up to the top box to limit the head of honey forming, and bruise any honey that has to be moved down because as can be seen in a natural nest , bees never move capped honey so you have to bruise it to make them do it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've never studied natural nests,.

because as can be seen in a natural nest , bees never move capped honey so you have to bruise it to make them do it.

Hmmm

 

[Macdee]

Interesting.
Have you studied natural nests?
And should we be putting our first super underneath ?
It might be interesting to put one top and bottom and see where the bees put their honey.

There was a super on top of the hive, as well as the one I added under the brood box. Today I checked that hive and found two small areas in the lower super, under the brood box, where there queen was starting to look around and where there was no nectar.

I will keep an eye on things and let you know if the nectar slowly disappears upwards.

It does look like it was a kind of 'dump and run' exercise; move it later to the right place .... time will tell :> [I also try this at home, but the 2nd stage can take a while .......]

Al

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hmmm

Yes hmmm brood and a half is one thing. This is something else.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've never studied natural nests, but over 40 years ago when I started it was common practice once a head of honey was forming under the queen excluder you moved the shallow under the deep brood it's a perfectly good way of pre-emptive swarming. Even now I'm all double brood on every second or third inspection I will move brood from the bottom box up to the top box to limit the head of honey forming, and bruise any honey that has to be moved down because as can be seen in a natural nest , bees never move capped honey so you have to bruise it to make them do it.

Oh now I understand what you are doing. You are giving the bees an extra brood box underneath. Yes that’s where you would give them space. It’s nothing to do with giving them room to store honey. It’s room to extend the brood nest.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oh now I understand what you are doing.

Glad someone does