Double brood with honey

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Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
86
Reaction score
14
Location
Blackburn, Lancashire
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
3
Hi
I have a hive on double brood and 4 supers (3 filled & being capped, 1 empty)
In today's inspection I noticed the top BB has now started to be back filled with honey (4 frames full of honey and the rest have brood with empty cells being filled with nector) instead of the supers.

• Should I just leave as is to become winter stores.
• Should I manipulate so they fill supers with honey.
• Any other advice?

In this area we usually have a flow on until late Sep.

Thanks
 
Hi
I have a hive on double brood and 4 supers (3 filled & being capped, 1 empty)
In today's inspection I noticed the top BB has now started to be back filled with honey (4 frames full of honey and the rest have brood with empty cells being filled with nector) instead of the supers.

• Should I just leave as is to become winter stores.
• Should I manipulate so they fill supers with honey.
• Any other advice?

In this area we usually have a flow on until late Sep.

Thanks
Most of us on here keep bees to produce honey but you're not going to extract the supers? If so I can't advise - no experience of this situation! Best wishes anyway.....
 
They are back filling brood frames in prep for winter, time to take the full supers off.
As is typical the top BB is where you want the stores as that is where later they will retreat up to.
 
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leave as is to become winter stores
Easy option and will give assurance that starvation very unlikely. Extract surplus in spring, though it may have set if ivy gets in.

manipulate so they fill supers with honey
Take off the empty super.
Extract the full supers when 50% capped, or check with a refractometer.
If the flow really is strong, put one box of combs back on, but late in the day.

Any other advice?
Two factors to consider: strength of colony going into winter, and the value of a BB of honey.

No point in putting a small or medium colony in 2 BBs, because by the time the colony gets to spring the spare space will limit thermal efficiency. Better to go into winter with bees ramming one box heavy with stores. Way to do that is to give the queen space to lay now, and feed heavily later in September.

If your colony would be a nice tight fit in one BB, extract the second and store the combs in a sealed box; protect from wax moth with sulphur strips or Dipel. This can be done before removing the supers and will persuade bees to finish those.

A BB of honey might yield 20kg and at my London price of .0279/g would give you £558, less jars and labels. Check local honey prices in your area. For example: £7.28/227g from The Finest Honey is more expensive than my equivalent.
 
Hi
I have a hive on double brood and 4 supers (3 filled & being capped, 1 empty)
In today's inspection I noticed the top BB has now started to be back filled with honey (4 frames full of honey and the rest have brood with empty cells being filled with nector) instead of the supers.

• Should I just leave as is to become winter stores.
• Should I manipulate so they fill supers with honey.
• Any other advice?

In this area we usually have a flow on until late Sep.

Thanks
Blackburn! !!!!! Just down the road from you
 
Easy option and will give assurance that starvation very unlikely. Extract surplus in spring, though it may have set if ivy gets in.


Take off the empty super.
Extract the full supers when 50% capped, or check with a refractometer.
If the flow really is strong, put one box of combs back on, but late in the day.


Two factors to consider: strength of colony going into winter, and the value of a BB of honey.

No point in putting a small or medium colony in 2 BBs, because by the time the colony gets to spring the spare space will limit thermal efficiency. Better to go into winter with bees ramming one box heavy with stores. Way to do that is to give the queen space to lay now, and feed heavily later in September.

If your colony would be a nice tight fit in one BB, extract the second and store the combs in a sealed box; protect from wax moth with sulphur strips or Dipel. This can be done before removing the supers and will persuade bees to finish those.

A BB of honey might yield 20kg and at my London price of .0279/g would give you £558, less jars and labels. Check local honey prices in your area. For example: £7.28/227g from The Finest Honey is more expensive than my equivalent.
 
In a quandary and would appreciate some advice please , I just placed the wet supers on 2 hives for a day and half and the bees have already starting filling and capping, one hive on double brood the other on single, the single is pretty full with one super that I left for them for winter (not fully capped yet) but had bees underneath the single brood today. The double Brood has 1 super box they are still caping and a wet super box they have already started filling! Is it to late to let then cap, than feed and treat at the end of the month that feels later or do I just take the partly filled supers off to store? Will they go mouldy in storage as they will likely do left in the hive over winter? I did reduce the space to 2 bee space below the wet supers.
 
In a quandary and would appreciate some advice please , I just placed the wet supers on 2 hives for a day and half and the bees have already starting filling and capping, one hive on double brood the other on single, the single is pretty full with one super that I left for them for winter (not fully capped yet) but had bees underneath the single brood today. The double Brood has 1 super box they are still caping and a wet super box they have already started filling! Is it to late to let then cap, than feed and treat at the end of the month that feels later or do I just take the partly filled supers off to store? Will they go mouldy in storage as they will likely do left in the hive over winter? I did reduce the space to 2 bee space below the wet supers.
What I would do is put the super under the brood boxes. They will move the stores up and will use the super if all the boxes above get full, they will however put brood in it in those circumstances so you may have to wait until late winter or early spring to remove.
 
wet super box they have already started filling
This tells you that a flow is on, in which case they will fill rather than clean combs above the crownboard. Until the nest contracts, the space above the CB has been determined to be within the nest, and bees fill from the top down.

When flows have ceased - drought, seasonal gap, ends of the year - they will clean out everything you give them above a board, as by then the nest perimeter will have reduced below the CB.

to late to let then cap, than feed and treat at the end of the month that feels later or do I just take the partly filled supers off to store?
Treating is a priority and you must decide what you want: bit-of-supers now or a strong and healthy colony in spring. Bees would 'prefer' both, of course, and if we thought like bees (as we ought) that is the port we should steer toward.

In other words, get the supers off now and treat. If the honey is 50% capped and passes the shake test (hold a frame horizontally over the box and shake down abruptly; drops = unripe nectar, no drops = honey) then extract.

Better still, get a refractometer and test each box, even frames. Extract unripe separately and retain it for feeding later, or nadir those combs as Enrico described. Return to the colony nectar above 19% in a feeder; do so at dusk to avoid a feeding or robbing frenzy. Below 19 is good for bottling. Legal limit for honey is 20% but at that point eventual fermentation is likely.

An advantage of extracting the unripe (rather than nadiring) is that the colony will then winter on fewer boxes, which makes life simple for the beekeeper and cosier for the bees, as nest heat will be retained more easily and with less bee effort.

An advantage of nadiring is that bees will have space, should they need it, to expand or store pollen or even nectar in September and October. Don't worry about the bees under the single BB hive: when the heatwave ends they will return indoors, and anyway, it is far better to winter a colony packed into one box than to rattle around in two.

The issue of space for the current flow may be a worry, but what is it that's coming in? Himalayan balsam, which may reduce to a trickle next week?

feed and treat at the end of the month
Feed, yes. Treat? Bit late to clean the winter bees. If using chemical or thymol treatments, then supers off. If vaping with oxalic, you could put a sheet of newspaper under the supers and the OA will affect the BB only; bees will chew the paper away. Repeat 3 times on day 1, 6 and 11.

go mouldy in storage
Wet supers will not go mouldy if stored dry and cold. Honey or nectar in the combs will probably ferment, but bees will clear that in spring without much side-effect. Avoid warm storage and protect combs from wax moth by using sulphur strips or Dipel, and from rodents by sealing the boxes.
 
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This tells you that a flow is on, in which case they will fill rather than clean combs above the crownboard. Until the nest contracts, the space above the CB has been determined to be within the nest, and bees fill from the top down.

When flows have ceased - drought, seasonal gap, ends of the year - they will clean out everything you give them above a board, as by then the nest perimeter will have reduced below the CB.


Treating is a priority and you must decide what you want: bit-of-supers now or a strong and healthy colony in spring. Bees would 'prefer' both, of course, and if we thought like bees (as we ought) that is the port we should steer toward.

In other words, get the supers off now and treat. If the honey is 50% capped and passes the shake test (hold a frame horizontally over the box and shake down abruptly; drops = unripe nectar, no drops = honey) then extract.

Better still, get a refractometer and test each box, even frames. Extract unripe separately and retain it for feeding later, or nadir those combs as Enrico described. Return to the colony nectar above 19% in a feeder; do so at dusk to avoid a feeding or robbing frenzy. Below 19 is good for bottling. Legal limit for honey is 20% but at that point eventual fermentation is likely.

An advantage of extracting the unripe (rather than nadiring) is that the colony will then winter on fewer boxes, which makes life simple for the beekeeper and cosier for the bees, as nest heat will be retained more easily and with less bee effort.

An advantage of nadiring is that bees will have space, should they need it, to expand or store pollen or even nectar in September and October. Don't worry about the bees under the single BB hive: when the heatwave ends they will return indoors, and anyway, it is far better to winter a colony packed into one box than to rattle around in two.

The issue of space for the current flow may be a worry, but what is it that's coming in? Himalayan balsam, which may reduce to a trickle next week?


Feed, yes. Treat? Bit late to clean the winter bees. If using chemical or thymol treatments, then supers off. If vaping with oxalic, you could put a sheet of newspaper under the supers and the OA will affect the BB only; bees will chew the paper away. Repeat 3 times on day 1, 6 and 11.


Wet supers will not go mouldy if stored dry and cold. Honey or nectar in the combs will probably ferment, but bees will clear that in spring without much side-effect. Avoid warm storage and protect combs from wax moth by using sulphur strips or Dipel, and from rodents by sealing the boxes.
A great post...helpful, informative and delivered with clarity.
 
What I would do is put the super under the brood boxes. They will move the stores up and will use the super if all the boxes above get full, they will however put brood in it in those circumstances so you may have to wait until late winter or early spring to remove.
Thank you for your feedback will read through later but I did place 2 supers back on last week.
 
This tells you that a flow is on, in which case they will fill rather than clean combs above the crownboard. Until the nest contracts, the space above the CB has been determined to be within the nest, and bees fill from the top down.

When flows have ceased - drought, seasonal gap, ends of the year - they will clean out everything you give them above a board, as by then the nest perimeter will have reduced below the CB.


Treating is a priority and you must decide what you want: bit-of-supers now or a strong and healthy colony in spring. Bees would 'prefer' both, of course, and if we thought like bees (as we ought) that is the port we should steer toward.

In other words, get the supers off now and treat. If the honey is 50% capped and passes the shake test (hold a frame horizontally over the box and shake down abruptly; drops = unripe nectar, no drops = honey) then extract.

Better still, get a refractometer and test each box, even frames. Extract unripe separately and retain it for feeding later, or nadir those combs as Enrico described. Return to the colony nectar above 19% in a feeder; do so at dusk to avoid a feeding or robbing frenzy. Below 19 is good for bottling. Legal limit for honey is 20% but at that point eventual fermentation is likely.

An advantage of extracting the unripe (rather than nadiring) is that the colony will then winter on fewer boxes, which makes life simple for the beekeeper and cosier for the bees, as nest heat will be retained more easily and with less bee effort.

An advantage of nadiring is that bees will have space, should they need it, to expand or store pollen or even nectar in September and October. Don't worry about the bees under the single BB hive: when the heatwave ends they will return indoors, and anyway, it is far better to winter a colony packed into one box than to rattle around in two.

The issue of space for the current flow may be a worry, but what is it that's coming in? Himalayan balsam, which may reduce to a trickle next week?


Feed, yes. Treat? Bit late to clean the winter bees. If using chemical or thymol treatments, then supers off. If vaping with oxalic, you could put a sheet of newspaper under the supers and the OA will affect the BB only; bees will chew the paper away. Repeat 3 times on day 1, 6 and 11.


Wet supers will not go mouldy if stored dry and cold. Honey or nectar in the combs will probably ferment, but bees will clear that in spring without much side-effect. Avoid warm storage and protect combs from wax moth by using sulphur strips or Dipel, and from rodents by sealing the boxes.
Many thanks for all the invaluable advice, I will nadir a balsam super, with this hive it will have to be chemical based & OA in winter
 
This tells you that a flow is on, in which case they will fill rather than clean combs above the crownboard. Until the nest contracts, the space above the CB has been determined to be within the nest, and bees fill from the top down.

When flows have ceased - drought, seasonal gap, ends of the year - they will clean out everything you give them above a board, as by then the nest perimeter will have reduced below the CB.


Treating is a priority and you must decide what you want: bit-of-supers now or a strong and healthy colony in spring. Bees would 'prefer' both, of course, and if we thought like bees (as we ought) that is the port we should steer toward.

In other words, get the supers off now and treat. If the honey is 50% capped and passes the shake test (hold a frame horizontally over the box and shake down abruptly; drops = unripe nectar, no drops = honey) then extract.

Better still, get a refractometer and test each box, even frames. Extract unripe separately and retain it for feeding later, or nadir those combs as Enrico described. Return to the colony nectar above 19% in a feeder; do so at dusk to avoid a feeding or robbing frenzy. Below 19 is good for bottling. Legal limit for honey is 20% but at that point eventual fermentation is likely.

An advantage of extracting the unripe (rather than nadiring) is that the colony will then winter on fewer boxes, which makes life simple for the beekeeper and cosier for the bees, as nest heat will be retained more easily and with less bee effort.

An advantage of nadiring is that bees will have space, should they need it, to expand or store pollen or even nectar in September and October. Don't worry about the bees under the single BB hive: when the heatwave ends they will return indoors, and anyway, it is far better to winter a colony packed into one box than to rattle around in two.

The issue of space for the current flow may be a worry, but what is it that's coming in? Himalayan balsam, which may reduce to a trickle next week?


Feed, yes. Treat? Bit late to clean the winter bees. If using chemical or thymol treatments, then supers off. If vaping with oxalic, you could put a sheet of newspaper under the supers and the OA will affect the BB only; bees will chew the paper away. Repeat 3 times on day 1, 6 and 11.


Wet supers will not go mouldy if stored dry and cold. Honey or nectar in the combs will probably ferment, but bees will clear that in spring without much side-effect. Avoid warm storage and protect combs from wax moth by using sulphur strips or Dipel, and from rodents by sealing the boxes.
Prior to extracting I did do the shake test this year & have done the same previous years but measured after as a new refractometer arrived to find the honey was over 22%, I gave the honey a stir with all coming out at 18%. At this stage I am not 100% sure my refractometer was set correctly that I have done since. I have no vape for OA but presume I can do the same with syrup if the supers are separated with paper
 
This tells you that a flow is on, in which case they will fill rather than clean combs above the crownboard. Until the nest contracts, the space above the CB has been determined to be within the nest, and bees fill from the top down.

When flows have ceased - drought, seasonal gap, ends of the year - they will clean out everything you give them above a board, as by then the nest perimeter will have reduced below the CB.


Treating is a priority and you must decide what you want: bit-of-supers now or a strong and healthy colony in spring. Bees would 'prefer' both, of course, and if we thought like bees (as we ought) that is the port we should steer toward.

In other words, get the supers off now and treat. If the honey is 50% capped and passes the shake test (hold a frame horizontally over the box and shake down abruptly; drops = unripe nectar, no drops = honey) then extract.

Better still, get a refractometer and test each box, even frames. Extract unripe separately and retain it for feeding later, or nadir those combs as Enrico described. Return to the colony nectar above 19% in a feeder; do so at dusk to avoid a feeding or robbing frenzy. Below 19 is good for bottling. Legal limit for honey is 20% but at that point eventual fermentation is likely.

An advantage of extracting the unripe (rather than nadiring) is that the colony will then winter on fewer boxes, which makes life simple for the beekeeper and cosier for the bees, as nest heat will be retained more easily and with less bee effort.

An advantage of nadiring is that bees will have space, should they need it, to expand or store pollen or even nectar in September and October. Don't worry about the bees under the single BB hive: when the heatwave ends they will return indoors, and anyway, it is far better to winter a colony packed into one box than to rattle around in two.

The issue of space for the current flow may be a worry, but what is it that's coming in? Himalayan balsam, which may reduce to a trickle next week?


Feed, yes. Treat? Bit late to clean the winter bees. If using chemical or thymol treatments, then supers off. If vaping with oxalic, you could put a sheet of newspaper under the supers and the OA will affect the BB only; bees will chew the paper away. Repeat 3 times on day 1, 6 and 11.


Wet supers will not go mouldy if stored dry and cold. Honey or nectar in the combs will probably ferment, but bees will clear that in spring without much side-effect. Avoid warm storage and protect combs from wax moth by using sulphur strips or Dipel, and from rodents by sealing the boxes.
With wet supers sterilisation I have used acetic acid in the past, your thoughts on freezing please?
 
thoughts on freezing
Impractical for more than a few boxes; big freezer needed; boxes must be sealed to prevent re- infestation; cost of electricity.

I wouldn't aim to sterilise, just kill wax moth: sulphur strips are cheap & effective. Dipel is expensive but smaller packets of B.t.k are on eBay, and it is very effective.
 
….and cosier for the bees, as nest heat will be retained more easily and with less bee effort.
But will it?
If you nadir there is a super below the BB, if you don’t and you have an OMF then the bottom of the BB is open to the elements (thro the OMF).
 

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