Uniting after AS - keeping old Q as insurance?

[Essexgary]

Hi all, couldn't find any topics on this, so sorry if it's been asked before.

I am about to re-unite after an AS (dont have space to increase). All checks made and new Q laying fine, worker brood etc. I will use the newspaper method and want to keep the new Q and get rid of the old Q. Question is, should I be keeping the old Q as insurance for a while? if so, where and how? just in case the unite doesn't work out and they ball the new Q.

Or, am i ok to immediately dispense of the old Q while uniting, and figure that they will make emergency QC's if it goes wrong.

Thanks for the advice.

Gary

 

[oliver90owner]

If your number of hives indicated are the two to be united (so back to one), yes, it would be a good idea if you are at all concerned.

It could be a butler cage and a few attendants for a few days, or a frame into a nuc with the queen, or a cupful of bees into a mini nuc.

If two does not include the colony to be united, I would not be so concerned.

Having said that lot, I have only ever had one that failed to unite and most have been by the paper method.

The single failure was down to too few bees in the top (and possibly too cold) and I simply let them through by removing the paper, at which point they united, anyway.

 

[Essexgary]

Great, thank you - yes i have another hive in addition to these AS two.. so I guess I will chance my arm and get rid of her straight away. Cheers, that's helped

Gary

 

[WingCommander]

Out of interest is this likely to stop the swarm urge - surely if they are united the size of the colony will mean they are likely to try and swarm again anyway?

Separate note a friend of mine performed (his first) AS and has noticed queen cells in the new (old queen) hive. Should these be destroyed or is it a sign that the queen (1yo) is in difficulty?

 

[aidskywalker]

Personally, I'd keep hold of the old queen until I was sure the new one was mated and laying, you never know if she might go on a mating flight and not make it back due to birds or the weather. You could keep her in a mini nuc with a cup full of young bees, then when you are sure your big hive is back to normal, either kill the old queen or sell her with the mini nuc, there's always someone who needs a queen.

 

[Essexgary]

Hi, an AS does just that - ie stop swarm surge, re-uniting together with the new queen, and plenty of room doesn't guarantee that they wont swarm again, but much less likely as the queen wont normally swarm in her first season (but again, no guarantees with beekeeping!)

Re the second point, depends if many QC's or just one (maybe two) in the centre-ish of the frame (supercedure). But remember they still may be in swarm mode so my bet is they are swarm cells - so I would pull them off.

Gary

 

[Tomo]

Did an AS a couple of weeks ago. Original queen in new box with flying bees, one frame of brood and one of food, swarmed after 7 days! Definitely no missed qc's as all new foundation. Swarm cells were made on base of brand new drawn foundation! Yep I agree, they don't read books.... I know this sounds impossible but that's what happened. I did the AS in the afternoon and they went in the afternoon 7 days later, two halves count as one day I suppose! (Got them back though, have her in spare hive as insurance).

 

[galileo]

As I understand it, if the AS is done when they're already well into swarming mode, the frame of brood that's transferred with existing Queen into the new box, may well have enough of the get up and go pheremone on it to keep them itchy. If they're going into a box with one old brood comb and all foundation and it's only the flying bees past their wax-secreting prime in there with the Queen, maybe population mass swarming gives way to egg-space limitation swarming? Dunno but it seems to be a reasonable theory.

 

[richardbees]

dont have space to increase

You could consider using a 'Snelgrove swarm board' - stacking the second colony on top of the first?

If you just unite I'm afraid that they'll just be off again

richard

 

[oliver90owner]

it's only the flying bees past their wax-secreting prime

Not true. You need to think a bit here. Misleading info for new beeks.

Flying bees are basically those over about 4 days old!

You need to differentiate between flying bees and foragers(which are typically over 3 weeks old).

 

[richardbees]

Separate note a friend of mine performed (his first) AS and has noticed queen cells in the new (old queen) hive. Should these be destroyed or is it a sign that the queen (1yo) is in difficulty?

imo yes, destroy these - they only built them out of habit and will soon stop

 

[Weavers Hives]

Thanks for answering (and asking) my question WC!

Having only registered on the forum yesterday, imagine my surprise at finding my burning question already asked by the Wing Commander.. thanks very much for both the questions and answers.

I do have another question though.. if you don't mind. I'm a new beek (I think you call it) of barely one year and, as the WC said, I have just performed my first AS.. approx 3 weeks ago. I inspected the old (Queenless) hive on the weekend and found that two of my queen cells had hatched, the third I destroyed. However, there were at least four more on the face of the comb which I'd obviously missed when I did the AS, one of which was also open.. I destroyed the others. There was plenty of bees, drones, and food and a fair bit of space, the hive was busy and I couldn't (unsurprisingly I suppose) spot any new queens. I plan to leave them now for a couple of weeks.

Does that sound wrong to anyone?

 

[oliver90owner]

A waste of time destroying queen cells three weeks after an A/S. Queens emerge eight days after capping.

There will only be one queen there. Any others that emerged (not hatched) have either been killed or have left with cast swarms by now.

Did you actually perform an A/S or did you simply split the colony? There are rather more manipulations to an A/S than moving the old queen into a different box.

'Sounds' to me as though you need a good beekeeping book as you appear to be deficient in the life cycle and reproduction of a honey bee colony.

Enjoy your bees but do learn about them, their needs and how to maintain a strong healthy colony.

 

[Essexgary]

If you just unite I'm afraid that they'll just be off again
richard[/QUOTE]

wow, that throws everything out of the window! re-uniting after an AS is common practice - so how comes?

Gary

 

[herefordshirehoney]

If you just unite I'm afraid that they'll just be off again
richard

wow, that throws everything out of the window! re-uniting after an AS is common practice - so how comes?

Gary[/QUOTE]

More foragers = more honey in theory when the bee's read the books

 

[CB008]

Did an AS a couple of weeks ago. Original queen in new box with flying bees, one frame of brood and one of food, swarmed after 7 days! Definitely no missed qc's as all new foundation. Swarm cells were made on base of brand new drawn foundation! Yep I agree, they don't read books.... I know this sounds impossible but that's what happened. I did the AS in the afternoon and they went in the afternoon 7 days later, two halves count as one day I suppose! (Got them back though, have her in spare hive as insurance).

I use a QE under the BB for a few days to stop her going straight away. It has seemed to have worked for me. I use sale grove boards. I would love to know from experts when you would reunite after a snelgrove AS as I would have assumed it would have to be in Autumn when bee numbers are down and swarm urge is less.

 

[galileo]

Thanks for the correction to my lax syntax rab. You are of course quite right. Notwithstanding the faux pas, does the supposition with regard to lack of young, wax-making bees in with an AS' d Queen on only foundation, have any bearing on the stay or nay outcome, in your experience/opinion?

Cheers

 

[oliver90owner]

No connection. If they go, they go. It is up to the beekeeper to reduce the risks of losing a swarm to a minimum. Simple common sense that if queen cells are produced after the A/S, they are unwanted in the scheme of A/S. Follow the proper laid down procedure and there is no, of very little, problem; there will be sufficient young flying bees transferring to the original position. No doubt about it. Padgen system has worked well for umpteen years; well proven and tested to the nth degree. The bees are not going to reinvent the wheel, even if some beekeepers think they will. Please remember, this not a natural swarm but artificial; that basically means 'man-made' and will not be absolutely the same as a completely natural event and needs the extra 'feathering' to make it reasonably foolproof.

Doez that make it clear?

 

[galileo]

As crystal -thanks for taking the time to respond.
Cheers

 

[Gimlet]

Forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that in a natural swarm it was the older forager bees that left with the queen to set up a new home and draw out comb from scratch, in nature without even the benefit of foundation?