Two late small nuclei . combine or leave?

[steelwine]

I have two small nuclei. One on about 2 frames, one on 3 frames. Both very small and new (They are from swarms that I have collected in the last couple of weeks).
Both are queen right, one has some sealed brood and the other is so new it only just has eggs.
I am worried that due to the size that they will not be built up in time to go into Winter. What are your thoughts. If I feed them will they build up in time or shall i sadly kill one of the queens and combine to make a larger colony. Would hate to have to do that but would be better than losing both!
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Will

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would help if we knew what part of the UK you are. A lot depends though on weather and how long the 'summer' lasts a bit of feeding (if they need it) and they could build up nicely for winter but maybe a combine would be the way ahead - wait a while to have an idea of both queens' performance.

 

[Finman]

.
What ever your home district is, those swarms are too small to develope.

Put them together. Restrict the room to the size of 5 frames.
Keep them warm. No mesh floor. Entrance 10 mm x 40 mm.
Put another queen into cage with some bees. When you see that queenis laying after joining, you may kill extra queen or give it to some pal.

 

[sherwood]

Far to small to build to a stage when they can be overwintered, definately unite but not just yet wait and maximise the brood you are going to have by letting both queens lay and then in Late September early October combine. Do keep feeding them both to build up stores and simulate a nectar flow to encourage the queens to lay.

 

[steelwine]

Great advice. Thanks Sherwood!

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I agree with Sherwood, In a polynuc would be good. You have the chance to select the queen once you know what the offspring are like too.

 

[drex]

This post has made me think - dangerous.

Why then do bees swarm so late in the season, even into September, if it is thought to be late for these colonies in nice comfortable nucs, to build up big enough to overwinter?

That would suggest that bees that are swarming now are committing suicide, or have I missed something?

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I had a grapefruit sized cast this time last year, they over wintered fine in a poly nuc and are a strong colony this year (6 frames on 1st Jan 2012). Last year it was just grapefruit sized with a virgin. Poly nucs help loads here if fed well and even small colonies can hapily grow into over winterable colonies to make full colonies next year. Even if they don't these could be combined later but you don't have to make that decision for a while yet. At the end of the day many of us over winter mating hives which are much smaller.

 

[kighill]

I agree with Finman, no point in trying to get to small a colony through much better chance of getting the combined Nuc's through.

 

[blackie]

did you cover mesh floor .out of interest when they over winterd

 

[Nic Rhodes]

no, bog standard Pay-nes poly, as of 1st Jan 2012 when I did oxalic acid.

 

[mazzamazda]

I personally think a lot depends on forage too, my bees have an abundance of Him Bal and Ivy, they build up right through September and October if weather is kind.

 

[Finman]

Far to small to build to a stage when they can be overwintered, definately unite but not just yet wait and maximise the brood you are going to have by letting both queens lay and then in Late September early October combine. Do keep feeding them both to build up stores and simulate a nectar flow to encourage the queens to lay.

good heavens sherwood! Do you have bees at all !

Maximise 2-frame swarm laying. Simulate nectar flow! .....
Pure nonsense...

 

[Finman]

I personally think a lot depends on forage too,

and you too....
Here we have a beginner who knows nothing about colony build up.

2 frames bees and 3 frames bees

when you put them together, he will get 3-4 frames brood. the limiting factor is the colony size.
What ever queen can lay 3 frame brood. 2 queens cannot lay not a one more egg in that hive.

After 3 weeks half of bees have died and one colony has one frame bees warming up 2 frames and so on.

Guys, think that over and don't push to do somethingwhat you will never do in your yard.

 

[rae]

I would think a lot more depends on the weather. Last year we got some new queens in very late, and did some splits. I recall that in August they were similar size. All three made it through the winter in heavily insulated 14x12s.

If we have a cold September and October, then combining them would be a good idea. If the weather stays good, I see no reason why they would not survive. Depends also where you are - if on the south coast, I would be optimistic, if in Scotland, I would combine.

 

[mazzamazda]

and you too....
Here we have a beginner who knows nothing about colony build up.

2 frames bees and 3 frames bees

when you put them together, he will get 3-4 frames brood. the limiting factor is the colony size.
What ever queen can lay 3 frame brood. 2 queens cannot lay not a one more egg in that hive.

After 3 weeks half of bees have died and one colony has one frame bees warming up 2 frames and so on.

Guys, think that over and don't push to do somethingwhat you will never do in your yard.

Yeah 30+ years beginner! how about you???

I was talking about forage NOT about 2 or 3 frame nucs. I think a bit more has to be understood before shouting out . One thing I have learned is bees are the experts NOT the beekeepers!

Mark

 

[Finman]

Yeah 30+ years beginner! how about you???

Mark

only 50

 

[Finman]

I would think a lot more depends on the weather.

yes. Days are becoming shorter and bees react on cold spells very different way like in spring.

In spring they rear brood even if there is frost outside. But now they are aware that winter is coming.

Day lenght and short of pollen tells to them about end of summer.

.

 

[Andy Duff]

This post has made me think - dangerous.

Why then do bees swarm so late in the season, even into September, if it is thought to be late for these colonies in nice comfortable nucs, to build up big enough to overwinter?

That would suggest that bees that are swarming now are committing suicide, or have I missed something?

bees are both pro-active (they do what they do naturally, despite the weather) and reactive (they are reacting to the weather) they do not have a diary to inform them that it's actually mid august.

 

[Andy Duff]

only 50

Cheers Finman, that means I will be dead 20 years before I have a clue how to be a bee-keeper