Truth and faith in varroa resistancy

[Finman]

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We have read lots about US higly hygienic bee stocks and varroa resistant bee breeds.

Lots of new beekeepers have been adviced: do nothing. Nature takes care.
Faith has spreaded to hobby beekeepers of Europe too, and they are encouraged to breed their own stocks by doing nothing.



What is situation in USA now......

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-016-0431-0

The treatment threshold of varroa in USA is 3 mites/100 bees (3%). It means that if we have 30 000 bees in the hive, it is allowed to have 900 mites. It is same as we have used. if hive has 60 000 bees, it can have 1800 mites.


vanEngelsdorp et al reports: From July through November, mean mite levels were above the treatment threshold of three mites per 100 bees

"However, it is only from August–November that we find more than 50 % of samples above the treatment threshold (three mites per 100 bees) with a max infestation rate of 64 mites per 100 bees detected in September 2011."

so, when winter is coming, 50% out of US hives needs varroa treatment, but then it is too late. Mite has destroyed winter brood too far. What you can do is hit down the mites for next season. But when hives have brood in winter, cleaning is difficult.

The picture tells, that on average, mite numbers in hives rises to 3-4 fold over treshold in autumn when winter bees should emerge. Researchers were surprised about the situation.

In migratory beekeeping mite numbers are smaller than in hives, which stays in same place.

So, hobby beekeepers have more varroa problems than professionals.

Nosema is more common in migratory hives than hives in same Place.

Viruses are many. Some have been identified during few years. Some are varroa assistants and some are not.

The field research has been done during years 2009-2014

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[Eyeman]

I agree

so, when winter is coming, 50% out of US hives needs varroa treatment, but then it is too late. Mite has destroyed winter brood too far. What you can do is hit down the mites for next season. But when hives have brood in winter, cleaning is difficult.

Nation’s Beekeepers Lost 44 Percent of Bees in 2015-16

 

[Michael Palmer]

. vanEngelsdorp et al reports: In migratory beekeeping mite numbers are smaller than in hives, which stays in same place.

In the US, many states are participating in an honey bee survey. The researchers are looking for brood diseases, varroa, nosema, and tropilaelaps. They take several samples from each apiary. Some samples are bees in alcohol, sent to VanEngelsdorp's lab. These are sampled for varroa and nosema. Combs of bees are shaken into pan, and the comb is hit hard to dislodge any tropilaelaps that might be present. None found. As well, a sample of live bees is sent to the lab. These are checked for viruses.

As the honey bee representative on Vermont's Pollinator Protection Committee, I was present when the researchers presented their findings. They sampled both migratory and stationary apiaries. They found that migratory apiaries had higher varroa loads than stationary apiaries.

One thing that I found most interesting. The migratory apiaries had higher varroa loads, and also had higher virus titers. Bumble bees, living near these high virus apiaries, also had higher virus titers than bumble bees living near stationary apiaries.

So, I don't know where you got your information, but what you say isn't what has been found in our Vermont apiaries by the VanEngelsdorp lab.

And as far as the nation's beekeepers losing 44% of their bees...that's debatable. I lost 2%. Many of my beekeeping friends who have been keeping bees for many years, the losses are in the 10% range for 2015-2016 winter. Those big summer losses, reported in the surveys are nonexistent here.

 

[Finman]

They sampled both migratory and stationary apiaries. They found that migratory apiaries had higher varroa loads than stationary apiaries.

Notably, across all samples, migratory beekeepers had significantly lower mite prevalence than stationary operations (84.9 vs. 97.0 %) and lower mean mite loads (Figure 3, 3.65 ± 0.28 vs. 5.99 ± 0.22 Varroa per 100 bees).

From wher I got:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-016-0431-0

But USA is a big country. From tropic to tundra. And lots of hives are transported during a yearg from tropic to even tundra (package bees).

Why I copied this is, that there lots of advertising , how bee breeding has solved in USA allready the mite droplem, and many other diseases.
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But those average numbers have big difference

migratory 85%
stationary 97% ........difference about 10% Not so huge actually.

Varroa per 100 bees
- migratory 3.7
- stationary 6 ..... that is 60% bigger

And again, if varroa multiplay 100% in one month, the difference is not so huge as it seems first.

If we imagine the lengt of brood season in south USA and in North. it is vain to compare those figures.

But anyway, mite pressure is big.
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[Little John]

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We have read lots about US higly hygienic bee stocks and varroa resistant bee breeds.

Lots of new beekeepers have been adviced: do nothing. Nature takes care.
Faith has spreaded to hobby beekeepers of Europe too, and they are encouraged to breed their own stocks by doing nothing.

I think both approaches are flawed - because they are both based on the principle of Adaptation by Natural Selection. It is my view that such Selection does not apply to the Honey Bee in the same way as it applies to other species.

Adaptation by Natural Selection requires that an advantage be conferred upon an organism prior to mating, so that those with that advantage then proceed to mate with increased success (and thus replicate those genes), and those without that advantage have relatively less success in mating and thus decline in numbers.

However, assuming for example that a virgin queen had mated with (say) 15 different drones - i.e. as a mated queen will now carry sperm with 15 different genetic sequences - when worker eggs are laid, there will be a 1 in 15 chance of any fertilised worker egg carrying a specific genetic sequence. Then, when any particular worker egg or larva is selected for development into a queen bee, this selection - as far as we know - will be made randomly, and not as a result of an advantage having been previously conferred. Likewise, drones which will eventually result from this queen bee will also be carrying a genetic sequence chosen at random, and not as a result of any advantage having been conferred by a genetic mutation prior to mating.
LJ

 

[Finman]

I think both approaches are flawed - because they are both based on the principle of Adaptation by Natural Selection. It is my view that such Selection does not apply to the Honey Bee in the same way as it applies to other species.
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LJ

I do not understand your idea.

Hmmm. Natural Selection. Beebreeding is made by beekeepers' selection.

It is domestic animal and does not live in nature. Artificial insemination is the strongest tool in bee breeding. Before that movable frames were important step in bee breeding.

And not to mention, varroa evelopes too all the time.

 

[Little John]

I do not understand your idea.

Hmmm. Natural Selection. Beebreeding is made by beekeepers' selection.

That's the whole point - hygenic bees ARE the result of Human Selection, but this is being promoted as the result of Natural Selection - survival of the fittest etc - which is why this can't work in the long term - because it's NOT natural. Bees select randomly, and NOT because of any 'fitness'.

It is domestic animal and does not live in nature.

A strange thing to say ...
LJ

 

[Finman]

Bees select randomly, and NOT because of any 'fitness'.

Natural selection does not mean, what bees select randomly.

It is mainly environment of the bee colony, which lets the individual die or continue its life.

The natural death rate of new individuals is huge in nature. Each bee colony makes 2 swarms every year. it should be 3 times more bee colonies next year, but how many of them are alive next summer? That is called natural selection.

Before Darwin and natural selection The Lord picked up those who were ready to heaven. And others Lord left them to continue their swimming in their sins. In many cases Devil picked individuals away.
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[Finman]

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A view from Wales hills...

Which will win? I bet the lamb. Winter and wind 68 miles/hour will kill the lion.

 

[Little John]

Natural selection does not mean, what bees select randomly.

It is mainly environment of the bee colony, which lets the individual die or continue its life.

The natural death rate of new individuals is huge in nature. Each bee colony makes 2 swarms every year. it should be 3 times more bee colonies next year, but how many of them are alive next summer? That is called natural selection.

Before Darwin and natural selection The Lord picked up those who were ready to heaven. And others Lord left them to continue their swimming in their sins. In many cases Devil picked individuals away.
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"Adaptation by Natural Selection requires that an advantage be conferred upon an organism prior to mating ... "

I though you were supposed to have a degree in Biology ? The key word here is ADAPTATION.
LJ

 

[Finman]

"[I though you were supposed to have a degree in Biology ? The key word here is ADAPTATION.
LJ

The British intelligenzia again in bloom...

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[B+.]

"Adaptation by Natural Selection requires that an advantage be conferred upon an organism prior to mating ... "

Are you suggesting that a queen only mates with those drones which she perceives a heritable advantage in?
This is the first time I have heard of the queen making a conscious decision on which drones to mate with.

 

[Jthebeek]

A queen that produces varroa resistant bees or bees who can cope better with varroa must have a massive advantage when mating as varroa prefers drones. less affected drones, more genes passed to the next generation. Am I wrong?

 

[Finman]

A queen that produces varroa resistant bees or bees who can cope better with varroa must have a massive advantage when mating as varroa prefers drones. less affected drones, more genes passed to the next generation. Am I wrong?

Yes but, there are least varroa in treated hives.

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[Jthebeek]

I treat my bees so just playing devils advocate. Treatment must therefore hinder the process of natural selection. Especially heavy treatment routines. If an area stopped treating surely the process of natural selection would tackle the problem. Again I know very little about this just seems like common sense. And I like common sense.

 

[Finman]

. And I like common sense.

But without learned knowledge common sense does not work very well.

Then there are measured researches. As you have seen, when results are not pleasant, common sense says that researching gove wrong answers.
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[Jthebeek]

I have knowledge I'm just not a specialist in the field of evolution. My point is we can agree that there is an advantage gained by varroa resistant bees. The problem seems to be that when you give weak genetics a competitive advantage you nullify the benefit held by the genetically strong. Conclusion if all beeks changed their ways it would sort itself out. I recognise this ain't happening any time soon I'm just pointing out there is merit to the idea. Again Common Sense

 

[Jthebeek]

Continued lol:would tell you if people in the area are treating you treat too.

 

[Finman]

I have knowledge I'm just not a specialist in the field of evolution. My point is we can agree that there is an advantage gained by varroa resistant bees. The problem seems to be that when you give weak genetics a competitive advantage you nullify the benefit held by the genetically strong. Conclusion if all beeks changed their ways it would sort itself out. I recognise this ain't happening any time soon I'm just pointing out there is merit to the idea. Again Common Sense

I have common sense too.


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[Jthebeek]

Sorry if you thought I was questioning your credentials. Sorry if my post gave you that impression. I was merely pointing out my observations based on experience. I am very thankfull you are engaging me in my interpretation of these facts. Hope no offence is taken.