Treatment fatalities!

[bjosephd]

Ok...

First time 'treating' my bees and I'm not impressed at all.

H!ve Al!ve in the rapid feeder in the syrup and a tray of Apiguard and the bees are pretty uncomfortable about the whole thing.

I could usually feed an entire rapid feeder with not a single fatality or drowning. However, in both hives over night the feeders got clogged up with dying, dead, and drowned bees. One hive a dead bee or two in the Apiguard. That same hive the bees really don't want to be in the hive, which is not great as now it's p!ssing it down with rain.

Ok, I understand this might be standard and no surprise putting something like this in the hive, but I really can't afford to lose a ton of bees, and certainly can't afford to lose a queen! Even her going off lay at all will be a nightmare too since I need to get these colonies numbers up.

My cunning plan to feed them up nicely over the next few rainy days and give them a boost with h!ve al!ve and get on top of early varroa build up seems to have backfired. I really hope I haven't done any harm and above all, that the queen is still alive and laying.

Now I hate myself as much as I hate doctors... and for the same reason!

Any thoughts? Hit me... I'm bracing myself for the criticism... hit me...

 

[alldigging]

7. Q: Can I feed my colonies whilst using Apiguard?
A: Yes and No. The recommendation is not to apply Apiguard whilst feeding simultaneously in
case the bees spend all their time taking the feed and not bothering to clean out the Apiguard gel.
This is not a high risk and will vary between different colonies so if you have to feed and treat at
the same time, try it in a few colonies first and see how the bees react.

From their FAQ
http://www.vita-europe.com/wp-content/uploads/Apiguard.pdf

Is it two weeks since you put the tray of apiguard on?

 

[bjosephd]

Yes... I read that last night after doing even more internet digging about treatments. Which is why I was straight back to the hives this morning. I've taken it all off now anyway, just in time for the monster rain.

Two weeks? Nope. Fed and treated all at the same time yesterday, so it's not like the Apiguard was sitting in there untouched for days. But it was in the feeder that they were dying. What a ******* I am fingers crossed the queen is ok.

Maybe I'll do H!ve Al!ve again in the feed but a lot weaker than it says... I believe there is thymol in that product too, so maybe it's a bit much in the bubble/cover of the rapid feeder... maybe I need to get a better more aerated feeder, probably also handy for putting in more than a couple of litres.

B££keeping!

 

[Tremyfro]

When I put Hivemakers thymol pads on my hives (the battery for my sublimator couldn't be charged as OH broke the charger!!!)....my bees buzzed loudly for hours and lots hung outside...luckily a nice day. I was feeding at the same time but didn't have any addition to the syrup. Do you think it might have been a double whammy with the thymol?

 

[bjosephd]

Yep, maybe a double whammy indeed. But the H!ve Al!ve in the syrup is not meant to be a full on varroa treatment at all... it's certainly not marketed as that so I guessed the thymol in it was minimal.

It's the queen I'm worried about really.

 

[alldigging]

Yes... I read that last night after doing even more internet digging about treatments. Which is why I was straight back to the hives this morning. I've taken it all off now anyway, just in time for the monster rain.

Two weeks? Nope. Fed and treated all at the same time yesterday, so it's not like the Apiguard was sitting in there untouched for days. But it was in the feeder that they were dying. What a ******* I am fingers crossed the queen is ok.

Maybe I'll do H!ve Al!ve again in the feed but a lot weaker than it says... I believe there is thymol in that product too, so maybe it's a bit much in the bubble/cover of the rapid feeder... maybe I need to get a better more aerated feeder, probably also handy for putting in more than a couple of litres.

B££keeping!

I mean - you fed and treated at the same time yesterday BUT already know the feeder is full of dead bees.
The treatment should go on and the bees be left for two weeks.

And please use treatments as described on the packaging.

 

[bjosephd]

Yep, was totally my plan to leave for two weeks... but thought worth checking the feeder today as I felt nervous, and it was clogged up with dead bees already.

I didn't do anything strictly against instructions, as as it says the answer to feeding and treating was yes and no. But I erred on the wrong side of caution. But I still find it curious that the feeder was where the fatalities were happening. Ho hum... it's all out now

 

[Eyeman]

My rapid feeders allow bees to access from below and there is a lid on top which prevents them accessing from above.
If the lid is on then there shouldn't be any fatalities.

 

[bjosephd]

My rapid feeders allow bees to access from below and there is a lid on top which prevents them accessing from above.
If the lid is on then there shouldn't be any fatalities.

That's exactly what my feeder is, and it has never had any deaths before, they were all jammed dead and floating in the narrow feeding bit under the cup and lid.

It's a feeder I have used many times before. But this time... death.

 

[Magwat]

They may have rushed up to the feeder to get away from the apiguard fumes. When I use apiguard I usually leave the insert a third of the way out just for the first night then close and seal it the next morning. It gives them time to become accustomed to the fumes. I often need to feed as well (no Himalayan balsam) so I put a rapid feeder on for a day or two before the treatment giving them sufficient food for 2 weeks then take it off and treat. If necessary I will then feed simultaneously with the second apiguard treatment.

 

[Nige.Coll]

It was cold last night.
Bees in the feeder may have died due to cold not drowned.

Thymol in syrup is for nosema not varroa .
You have very little chance of the queen dieing in a feeder.

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks Magwat, good thoughts there...

 

[Tremyfro]

That's exactly what my feeder is, and it has never had any deaths before, they were all jammed dead and floating in the narrow feeding bit under the cup and lid.

It's a feeder I have used many times before. But this time... death.

Are you certain that the cup was pressed down properly....as if not it floats up and will allow lots of bees in. It does seem likely that the fumes drove them into the feeder though.
This year I have bought some Maisemore frame feeders...added extra floaters...and they have worked well. Saves using an eke....on the long hives....and the wasps were unable to get in.

 

[bjosephd]

Thanks Magwat, that probably is quite possibly likely, as they seemed very busy up in the feeder... maybe they got very excited about the hive alive magic potion also and it was all a bit to exciting and stressful and fume filled combo that was totally less than ideal!

 

[bjosephd]

Are you certain that the cup was pressed down properly....as if not it floats up and will allow lots of bees in. It does seem likely that the fumes drove them into the feeder though.
This year I have bought some Maisemore frame feeders...added extra floaters...and they have worked well. Saves using an eke....on the long hives....and the wasps were unable to get in.

Yep, totally certain, as I have learned that lesson before! So now I'm totally paranoid and tend to push the cup down 3 or four times, then put the lid on, take the lid off 3 seconds later to check once more, then put the lid back on again. A couple months ago I found lots of dead bees once they had finished the syrup, crawled under the >beespace gap and not been able to find their way back in!

I think the crowding away from the fumes sounds most likely.

 

[bjosephd]

It was cold last night.
Bees in the feeder may have died due to cold not drowned.

Thymol in syrup is for nosema not varroa .
You have very little chance of the queen dieing in a feeder.

Indeed... not worried about the queen dying in the feeder... more that there were one or two dead bees in the apiguard gel, and thought that didn't seem good at all... and that generally it's addition to the hive was far more toxic than I thought, and therefore upset the queen to some degree. I think I'll have to leave them for a few days now, let them calm down, and wait for a fairly dry day to feed them properly again with maybe a weaker hive alive mix (thick syrup of course though)... question is what's more important for them, getting them fed and laying and get their numbers up (late starting, late queened colonies) or to get the varroa treatment in while the temperature is still 'correct' for apiguard. I went for both... not ideal.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Apiguard can put the queen off lay and doing that for a month now isn't ideal a little late really.

Hmmm varroa or nosema both kill colonies over winter I'm afraid that is your decision.

The easiest way to get both done now is to vapourise oa and then feed but you would need the vapouriser or someone that is willing to do it for you.

Another option is to feed now and wait until Christmas and drizzle/dribble oa then for varroa.
Have you seen any dwv or have a high varroa count ?

All I can think of atm.sry.



Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[bodlamby]

I have carried out the same treat and feed scenario as you have this year. I did it due to what I thought were time constraints with regards to the temperature and Apiguards effectiveness.
I only have a small colony (new to me in July) so only placed 25grams onto the top of the frames on a piece of card. Then placed the rapid feeder onto the crown board hole with a 2:1 syrup with Hive Alive mixed to stop the fermentation.
A couple of hundred bees stayed out of the hive for at least 3 days/nights. Looked into the feeder and found about a dozen dead bees in the syrup.
So with being a week in front of you I'll pass on my observations and thoughts.
1. The Apiguard is doing its intended treatment. Mite count risen from 5 mites during the first week in August to approx. 100 over 3 days this week.
2. Having cleared the bees out of the feeder there are one or two that have started feeding but not the tremendous feeding that some people have reported on. Thankfully the hive alive will keep it from fermenting so I am happy to leave it where it is.
3. Having put the syrup on at the same time as Apiguard I wonder if the bees are associating the smell of Hive Alive with the smell of Apiguard and trying to clear it out of the hive and in doing so are diving into the syrup thinking in may be more solid than it is and becoming stuck due to the stickiness of it.

I'll let you know if things change in either direction in a few days.

 

[user 6228]

Interesting lecture by Prof Jamie Lewis at the SBA convention on the relative very short term toxicity of some miticides compared to neonictinoids, It showed that miticides are very toxic to bees ... So it emphasises the fact that you are relying on the dosage being correct, so as the reduction in the damage to bees due to mites is greater than the damage done to bees by the miticide.

So there are going to be circumstances, due to mistakes or changes of environment, with miticides that will not be pretty.

 

[bjosephd]

It's all rather tricky... no DWV... varroa count not huge... maybe 3 over a few days... but as above, it seems they can all hang on rather tight until they are treated. I rather wanted to avoid opening them up and pouring acid on them for christmas! Maybe I just need to feed them up with good old simple thick sugar syrup and allow them to get their numbers up (assuming the night of treatment hasn't put the queens significantly off lay). Maybe Hive Alive in the syrup might help? But now I'm beginning to miss-trust putting anything in.