Top bar problems

[eleanor20]

I had a quick peak inside all of my hives yesterday and am a bit stumped as to what to do with my top bar hive. At the end furthest from the entrance they have 3 completely empty combs, the next one has stores on the outside but the topbar is detached from the comb. I didn't try to move anything further in as I didn't want to do any more damage but now what to do?
My temptation is to say "it's been a fun experience" and somehow put them back into a national, does anyone have any advice? Is this common for the combs to be stuck together or to the sides of the hive after a long period of not being disturbed ie the winter (I suspect this must be quite common as my nationals were all well and truly gummed up too but much easier to resolve)

 

[Moggs]

Rubber bands can often be pressed into service to relocate the comb so that the bees can reinforce it to the bar. Your issues with heavily gummed (wax or propolis?) Nationals may be as a consequence of incorrect 'bee space'. Are the hives built to the correct spec?

 

[masterBK]

You have Nationals and you have a TBH. You now have experience of both so my advice would be to pick the hive type you found worked the best for you (as it is more trouble keeping more than one hive type).
I understand why people in underdeveloped countries keep TB hives (the Kenyan hive was developed by Canadian bee researcher Dr.Maurice V. Smith in 1971 as part of the Canadian aid programme) but still don't appreciate why anyone in affluent UK would want one. I imagine others will dispute this!

 

[Chris B]

but still don't appreciate why anyone in affluent UK would want one. I imagine others will dispute this!

I don't imagine I'll ever use them but I've seen them in action several times and I can see the appeal.

 

[pargyle]

You have Nationals and you have a TBH. You now have experience of both so my advice would be to pick the hive type you found worked the best for you (as it is more trouble keeping more than one hive type).
I understand why people in underdeveloped countries keep TB hives (the Kenyan hive was developed by Canadian bee researcher Dr.Maurice V. Smith in 1971 as part of the Canadian aid programme) but still don't appreciate why anyone in affluent UK would want one. I imagine others will dispute this!

There are lots of positive things about TBH and other alternative hive styles -I don't think over wintering problems are confined to TBH's - colony loss this year appears to be pretty awful across the whole spectrum of hives. I think some TBH's may suffer when they are not constructed with enough weatherproofing or insulation and in the cold wet winter we have had I would imagine that keeping any hive really dry inside has been a challenge. Also - in a TBH I would expect the cluster to be confined with follower boards during the winter so that the bees have more chance of maintaining the hive conditions at a suvivable level. The OP does not provide enough details of what the other factors are regarding the TBH (feeding, colony size, OMF or not, etc.) to just say 'its the hive's fault'. I've no doubt that there will be people along who will dispute this !!

 

[Gimlet]

I understand why people in underdeveloped countries keep TB hives (the Kenyan hive was developed by Canadian bee researcher Dr.Maurice V. Smith in 1971 as part of the Canadian aid programme) but still don't appreciate why anyone in affluent UK would want one. I imagine others will dispute this!

I am not one to dispute anyones ideas but I will point out a few very obvious reasons to use top bar hives, the working height is easily set to your own preference for comfort, there is no heavy lifting involved and when you lift the lid you do not get masses of bees emerging from everywhere.

This tends to give one a lot more confidence, so much so that I had been handling my bees for 6 months wearing just sandals, a tee shirt and shorts before I had a few stings and decided to get a veil for the odd occasions when they are a little more agitated.

There are obvious disadvantages as well, that is why I have chosen to fix national frames to the underside of my top bars to turn them into horizontal hives which seem to have some advantages from both types.

 

[eleanor20]

Now that is a good idea..... (fixing national frames onto top bars)

I know there will always be those for and those against, but at the moment I am just looking for a solution to my immediate problem. Do I go in with a sharp knife and some rubber bands or is there a better way for me to do this first inspection withouth causing huge amounts of damage?

 

[drex]

to try to answer your questions directly and not get into the debates about TBH. Yes, in my experience after a prolonged period of not opening, I tend to get attachments to sides of hives. Yours was virtually the situation I faced with first look inside one of mine yesterday. The empty frames would have been full of stores going into winter and have bene consumed. You can cut down on the " empty" space by putting them behind a follower baord if you wish - I did not yesterday as it was a strong hive. Starting from that very end I used a carving knife slid down side of combs to detach them from the sides, moved empty comb out of way, then worked on the next one, and so on. One of my combs had become detached and I just re attached it with loops of masking tape, which the bees will chew away once attached, or you can use rubber bands, hair grips or string.

This hive was stronger than any of my nationals. Soldier on. I think you just need a bit more experience at the different handling involved of a TBH. I enjoy running my TBH, but most of my hives are Nationals. It has taught me a lot about beekeeping.

 

[davnig]

I understand why people in underdeveloped countries keep TB hives (the Kenyan hive was developed by Canadian bee researcher Dr.Maurice V. Smith in 1971 as part of the Canadian aid programme) !

Although according to one of the lecturers at the convention (Maryann Frazier) they're not actually much cheaper to run than Langstroths/Nationals and 95% of hives in Kenya are traditional log hives.

Return on investment apparently from 1:100 - 1:250 as compared to 1:3 - 1:6 for TBH or langstroth - a huge difference.

So if you want to go the cheap route - log hives are the way!

 

[eleanor20]

Thank you drew, that was exactly the encouragement I needed. I just need to be brave!
I have really enjoyed having this tbh and feel in many ways it has taught me more than the nationals have. I agree it would be much easier to stick to one type of hive, but then if I wanted easy I would just buy my honey from the local supermarket!

 

[user 6228]

North European bees natural habitat is in the hollows of trees. This means they have evolved to live a tall narrow well insulated nest.

The typical height of the nest is 1.5m and width 200mm (See Tom Seeley paper for details). The geometry of the tall nest means the hottest part of the nest has a very much smaller surface area compared to a national, which in turn has a significantly smaller area than a a similar volume topbar.

In other words you need to have significantly more insulation on a topbar than a national to bring the topbar to same amount of heat loss as a national

and you need to go to extreme lengths of insulation to make either the national or the top bar to match the heat loss of a tree nest.

The corollary to the heat loss means that smaller colonies with less stores are probably more likely to survive in a tree nest configuration than a national and in a national rather than a top bar, even if made of the same lambda value and thickness of material.

 

[Little John]

Jeezus - it's like listening to a bunch of politicians ...

"Be reasonable - see things my way - join my tribe - think like I think - do as I do ".

Should the OP want to continue working with the TBH, then (assuming it's a KTBH - she doesn't say), then here's a very simple method to convert a National deep frame to fit - if that's what's wanted (?):

Using a partition Board as a pattern.

2 simple cuts each side is all that's required.

Fits like a glove, respecting bee-spaces to the side - assuming you've built the hive to the B-i-o-b-e-e-s dimensions.

LJ

 

[itma]

... I used a carving knife slid down side of combs to detach them from the sides, moved empty comb out of way, then worked on the next one, and so on. One of my combs had become detached and I just re attached it with loops of masking tape, which the bees will chew away once attached, or you can use rubber bands, hair grips or string.

I had thought that a really long (sometimes flexy) serrated knife was part of the usual toolkit for tbh owners.
Cut back the comb to leave a standard double-beespace (~8mm) at the sides, and scrape down the walls, otherwise it will be quickly reattached.
Ensuring that the sides are free should reduce the number of times that you are left holding a bar while the comb remains in the hive!

I understand that ensuring the hive is accurately level is very helpful in getting comb drawn tidily.

 

[pargyle]

Jeezus - it's like listening to a bunch of politicians ...

"Be reasonable - see things my way - join my tribe - think like I think - do as I do ".

Should the OP want to continue working with the TBH, then (assuming it's a KTBH - she doesn't say), then here's a very simple method to convert a National deep frame to fit - if that's what's wanted (?):

Using a partition Board as a pattern.

Personally I'd stick with the TBH for the time being and see how they get on.

2 simple cuts each side is all that's required.

Fits like a glove, respecting bee-spaces to the side - assuming you've built the hive to the B-i-o-b-e-e-s dimensions.

LJ

No ... Unless I'm misaken I think she was asking the opposite originally - thinking of giving up the TBH and wanting to put the bees into a National hive - I think the only way of doing this sensibly would be to do a shook swarm into a national box or a Nuc - perhaps with a frame of brood to get them started if the OP has one ?

 

[ratcatcher]

Now that is a good idea..... (fixing national frames onto top bars)

I know there will always be those for and those against, but at the moment I am just looking for a solution to my immediate problem. Do I go in with a sharp knife and some rubber bands or is there a better way for me to do this first inspection withouth causing huge amounts of damage?

girls hair clips are what I use to attach comb to the top bar, the bees soon build over and around them, they are left in permanently

if you watch at around 47 seconds, you'll see the clips in place

http://youtu.be/oymyPj1be14


and for the future, just make sides to fit on your top bars, cheaper than using national frames, although I build square rather than slanted hives

http://youtu.be/li9obrnaRZE

 

[drex]

I just use a plain top bar with starter bead of wax. They are not often re-atttached in season. Although a bit dramatic a chop and crop is simple for putting brood from a national into TBH. A level hive is essential for straight comb

 

[DanBee]

here's a very simple method to convert a National deep frame to fit - if that's what's wanted (?):

Using a partition Board as a pattern.

2 simple cuts each side is all that's required.

Fits like a glove, respecting bee-spaces to the side - assuming you've built the hive to the B-i-o-b-e-e-s dimensions.

LJ

Thank you - those photos will come in very handy

I suppose that solves the problem of comb bracing to the sidewalls too? Ingenious

 

[valbee]

Be brave and carry on, don't be too quick to give up. lots of people try top bars, and do very well. There is a ton of info about top bars, m bush site is always interesting, it seems easy enough to reattach that comb with a hair grip. lots of vids on you tube showing the easy way to do fix it almost looks fun to try. let us know how you get on, also the same happened to my friend this week maybe its the heat wave, i think they may also try the hairgrip method, it looks easy enough to do.

 

[madasafish]

For detached combs, I take out the top bar and place it on a frame hanger - basically two verticals about 15.5" apart attached to a bottom horizontal- and then you have three sets of hands.


Then take some precut lengths of string# - about 50cms long and drape at the ends and middle of the top bar . # fine thin, garden twine ideal

Using nitriles, (to keep hands clean), i remove the bottom broken comb having cut round edges with a serrated bread knife (sharpened so it cuts cleanly) so it is loose of walls.

Lift into place under top bar and wrap string round ends and middle of comb.whilst holding comb in place with one hand.(! eek).

Fiddle around so it's straight and well supported.

Replace in hive after cleaning comb off walls to reduce chance of it recurring.

Bees will repair and throw out string.

(If you have aggressive bees, count stings. And then re-queen.)

Preferably do in a cool period or comb will collapse on you.