Tom Seeley - Darwinian Beekeeping

[charlievictorbravo]

Here's a link to a Bee Audacious meeting in California last month.

At About 17 minutes in, Tom Seeley gives his views on how he thinks bees should be kept. For example, he suggests that we should put with aggressive bees. There's lots in there for "non-treaters" and the Derek Mitchells of this world. The Q & A after the presentation is interesting too.

Following Seeley is Ratnieks from LASI - saimo, saimo "don't treat the bees for diseases", "survival of the fittest", etc.

Thought provoking!

CVB

 

[Finman]

Here's a link to a Bee Audacious meeting in California last month.

At About 17 minutes in, Tom Seeley gives his views on how he thinks bees should be kept. For example, he suggests that we should put with aggressive bees. There's lots in there for "non-treaters" and the Derek Mitchells of this world. The Q & A after the presentation is interesting too.

Following Seeley is Ratnieks from LASI - saimo, saimo "don't treat the bees for diseases", "survival of the fittest", etc.

Thought provoking!

CVB

I have had those bees. Luckily varroa killed them all from Finland. Feral Black bees, I mean.
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And varroa killed those feral keepers too during in years 1985-1995. Thanks to my friend varroa.
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Offensive bees, we have talked about them. They are dangerous to outsider people, whk walk near hives or ride with horses.

Seeley should be put in prison, that he cannot deliver that carbage.

40% out of US hives die annually. Stop treating!...... And all World is mimicking: Bees are vanishing, because USA does not treat its hives.

.

 

[B+.]

Bee Audacious meeting in California last month.

In an audacious idea there are always things that can be done and things that should be done. I think all of these presentations conatain a bit of both. Thanks for posting the link.

 

[madasafish]

Here's a link to a Bee Audacious meeting in California last month.

At About 17 minutes in, Tom Seeley gives his views on how he thinks bees should be kept. For example, he suggests that we should put with aggressive bees. There's lots in there for "non-treaters" and the Derek Mitchells of this world. The Q & A after the presentation is interesting too.

Following Seeley is Ratnieks from LASI - saimo, saimo "don't treat the bees for diseases", "survival of the fittest", etc.

Thought provoking!

CVB

And I think we should recreate the Auroch and kill a few herdsmen....

 

[Hivemaker.]

For example, he suggests that we should put with aggressive bees.

Easy to do over there, just fill all their hives with Africanized bees if aggressive bees are what they really want.

 

[Finman]

Easy to do over there, just fill all their hives with Africanized bees if aggressive bees are what they really want.

Good notion.. Do nothing and Darwin handles the rest in couple of years.

Back to nature...

Now they catch killer bees and swarms with tax payers money.

Perhaps those Darwin bees was a joke.

 

[Finman]

Here's a link to a Bee Audacious meeting in California last month.

CVB

I did not find much issue from that video, but I heard a sentence "pollinating losses, that is why we are here".

 

[bpmurray]

Tom Seeley has dropped in my estimation. His concept of a Darwinian approach to beekeeping forgets about the realities of modern bees: Varroa, Tropilaelaps, SHB, DWV, etc. have all been imposed on them by man and they have not had a chance to evolve to address these. Simply shoving them in a box and hoping that they will suddenly self-select for the necessary traits is a surprisingly stupid idea from someone who is clearly not. And I suppose they'll evolve the ability to beat off the tourist hornets when they arrive too!

While aggressive hives may be more productive and thrive better, I prefer calm, under-achieving colonies to clouds of evil demonic killers that can fill a super in an afternoon any day.

 

[REDWOOD]

I suppose the difference is do you want to just look at Bees from a distance or produce honey. All living things has stopped on the evolutionary ladder except for thing that live n the wild due to vacations, antibiotics, genetics and other medical marvels.


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[Fusion_power]

I don't keep aggressive bees. I don't keep africanized bees though I did trial some BWeaver queens 2 years ago. When I found how hot they were, I requeened them with the exception of one daughter queen that I saved because her colony is both productive and gentle. I don't keep bees that can't survive on their own. Yes, bees will self select for the necessary traits to survive. The beekeeper is the one who may go bankrupt in the process, but the bees will survive. With a little planning, we can have bees that are varroa resistant and still produce honey and still pollinate crops.

Which brings the conversation back to something worth thinking about. Why are so many beekeepers afraid of change?

 

[Beefriendly]

I suppose the difference is do you want to just look at Bees from a distance or produce honey. All living things has stopped on the evolutionary ladder except for thing that live n the wild due to vacations, antibiotics, genetics and other medical marvels.

As you say, we don't keep bees "in the wild". I think of them as on the road to domestication. In which case Seeleys and Ratniek's ideas should only apply to feral colonies which are largely left to their own devices anyway....except when Prof. Seeley went and chopped down the trees they were living in to estimate their nest spaces. A destruction of bee colonies, presumably many found by the skills he mentioned in his Following the Wild Bee's book.

 

[user 6228]

But we don't keep bees "in the wild". I think of them as on the road to domestication. In which case Seeleys and Ratniek's ideas should only apply to feral colonies which are largely left to their own devices anyway....except when Prof. Seeley went and chopped down the trees they were living in to estimate their nest spaces. A destruction of bee colonies, presumably many found by the skills he mentioned in his Following the Wild Bee's book.

This is a false dichotomy I.e. Unbounded exploitation vs fully feral. The present ideas on beekeeping are 150 to 80 years old . Why can't we devise a different new compromise more in favour of the bees?

 

[REDWOOD]

The ban on antibiotics was a step forward


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[B+.]

Tom Seeley has dropped in my estimation. .

Don't you understand how these things work?
These are "blue -sky", visionary events which are part of the strategy formulation process.
The idea is that there are no bad ideas and the purpose is merely to generate candidates for adoption. It probably wasn't his idea but he was nominated by the group to present the ideas.

 

[Beefriendly]

This is a false dichotomy I.e. Unbounded exploitation vs fully feral. The present ideas on beekeeping are 150 to 80 years old . Why can't we devise a different new compromise more in favour of the bees?

Yes Derek, there are other alternatives.
It's all too easy to obfuscate issues, I prefer to keep it simple and understandable. Something along the lines of .....Keep vicious heavily parasitised bees!
In your apiary if you wish, over my dead body in mine.

What you seem to be suggesting is that every beekeeper goes along with this "new" compromise, whatever it may be. Something that simply won't happen in reality, an improbability if you like.

 

[oxnatbees]

I haven't treated since 2012. My original Buckfasts died that winter with a high varroa load(!) so I restocked with local swarms. I have not lost a colony to varroa since. Most have some varroa, but seem to be in balance with their parasite and the varroa levels are dropping year by year. Asking around, other beekeepers round here don't usually treat either saying varroa are becoming less of an issue. No doubt the colonies are knocked back a bit and the honey crop is lower than it would be, but a side bonus is the bees are very calm as they are not being medicated with irritants.

So yes. I think Seeley is right, though I would have to requeen an aggressive colony.

And I think the disparaging attitude of people towards those among us who are trying to improve the stock is uncalled for, and is discouraging many people from admitting they don't treat, and suppressing open debate. I respect the expertise of others here and learn from it, but I don't see the relevance of someone in northern Europe talking in a British forum about how all the Amm in another country died of varroa years ago. Experience shows that bees in at least parts of the UK are fine without treatment.

 

[alldigging]

Thought provoking!

CVB

he also thinks we should keep bees an awful lot further away from each other than we do.

 

[Hivemaker.]

but I don't see the relevance of someone in northern Europe talking in a British forum about how all the Amm in another country died of varroa years ago.

The forum is open to beekeepers from any country to write about their experiences, not just to those in the UK.

 

[Beefriendly]

No doubt the colonies are knocked back a bit and the honey crop is lower than it would be, but a side bonus is the bees are very calm as they are not being medicated with irritants.

Exactly, smaller colonies much less honey.
But I disagree when you say they are calm because they are not being medicated. Mine are docile and treated....plus I get lots of honey and big healthy colonies that aren't carrying a debilitating parasite load. Yours may be surviving without any treatment but how is it affecting the quality of their life?
As others have previously said how can you be at 100% fitness as a human if you were also weighed down carrying a blood sucking parasite the size of a dinner plate on your back that has bored a hole through your skin, is drinking your blood and is also injecting you with debilitating viruses at the same time.
That's not life, that is cruelty to insects. Even more so when you are in a position to alleviate their suffering.
But they are your bees.....and your choice to not treat.

 

[Finman]

I haven't treated since 2012.

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I have lost hives to varroa since year 1982

Most of losses are reduced Winter cluster, which means slow build up in spring and reduced honey yield.

IT has been researched in France that mite resistant hives get 50% smaller honey yields. The pest takes its one part like weeds do in wheat field.
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