To shook swarm or not?

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Hombre...

There was a technique taught years ago where the strongest hives donated to the weaker and so brought all the colonies in the apiary to the same strength.

It generally failed as people were unable to judge the ability of the recipient colonies to cope with the extra brood.

Given that colonies in spring are usually at the maximum brood they can support really to boost them they need bees not brood donated.

PH
 
I'll continue to stick my neck out on this one!

1. Benefits for varroa control

It knocks the varroa right back. I'm not sure of the percentages which differ but it is often said 85% of the varroa is in the sealed brood but I have seen other figures recently whivch suggest it may be less than this.

2. Best time of year to do the shook swarm

The time to avoid is when the bees being raised are going to be your main foraging force for your main nectar flow. So if July is your best month for nectar then not less than 6 weeks before this and probably 8 weeks to be on the safe side. The logic is a worker is three weeks as egg/larva/pupa then say 3 weeks as a house bee before becoming a forager. So not later than the middle of May and probably not later than the end of April.

3. Equipment needed.

A spare brood box and ideally a spare floor so they start with everything clean. Plus a queen excluder to put under the brood box for the first week or so, until they have their own brood to look after. They should also be fed unless the hive is next to a field of OSR in flower. 1:1 syrup is recommended. I use a rapid feeder but others recommend a bucket with gauze thingy. I have not tried delaying feeding but there is probably sense in not feeding them for the first 2 or 3 days so they empty their honey crop. This is a technique used for foulbroods in Europe.

4. Does the hive need to be relocated 3 miles away ?

No, the old hive is moved to one side and the "new" floor and brood box is put on the old site. This way the bees which take to the air can find their way home.

5. Can you use foundation instead of drawn combs

The whole concept is based on the bees using fondation. If you use drawn comb you risk introducing disease but more importantly I suspect it would not trigger what I call the "swarm reflex" which is what makes the bees work like mad and the queen to lay frantically once she has somewhere to lay -which may only be two or 3 days after the manipulation.

6. Likelihood of natural swarming occurring

Some report significantly less swarming but you must still continue normal inspections for queen cells once they get going.

7. Do you then routinely do another varroa control (ie. oxalic)

There are two alternatives, one is to put a bait frame, which is a frame of unsealed brood in with the foundation for about a week or until most of it has been sealed. This mops up lot of the mites which survived the shook swarm by being attached to bees. Once the frame is mostly sealed and before any bees emerge from it the frame is removed and destroyed.

You could also do some sort of chemical treatment such as an oxalic acid trickle. With no brood present this will be very effective.

And of course you could try both.

8. Does the age of the queen make this more/less successful?

If the queen is on her last legs then she was probably going to fail anyway. I have not seen any specific advice on this but as with normal hive management things are going to be better with a young queen.

9. Advantages/disadvantages in general ?

Here is where it gets perhaps controversial! Experience indicates the bees are heathier and stronger for a shook swarm. Disdvantages - you end up with a lot of frames to melt down and of course it is extra work at a time in the apiary when there are probably lots of other things going on such as queen rearing and collecting the OSR honey.

OSR is a factor in all this. I have shown the picture below before but the hive on the left was given a shook swarm on about 25 March. The picture was taken just as the OSR was coming in to flower on 13 April. The upper box is full of frames of foundation and there was no queen excluder between them and from memory the lower box had about 7 frames of brood. I am not very good at record keeping but I recall getting at least two full supers off this hive, which would have been a bit over 100 lbs. I guess I would have had more if they had not been given a shook swarm but by mid-May there were a total of 15 frames of brood and shortley afterwards I split the whole colony into four using queen cells from another hive.


3438087938_041aa491a5.jpg
 
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To answer Hombre's comment which he posted while I was writing the above text book, I see no reason why you shouldn't give frames of especially sealed brood to weak colonies. I know a bee farmer who is very keen on balancing colonies by taking frames from the strong to give to the weak (but he isn't called Robin) and his saying was "a frame of brood gives three frames of bees" meaning the bees which emerge from the frame can rear another three frames of brood layed by their own queen.

Of course you must ensure you are not transferring disease but within an apiary it should not be a problem.
 
thanks for the detailed reply, Roofy.

I think the balance of sharing brood v mite infestation is a small price to pay. I also like the idea of a frameof larvae put in to cull after a week. Almost no reason then to treat again with oxalic ?


regards

S
 
Thanks Poly Hive and RoofTops, points well taken.

I was aware of not overburdening a colony, but hadn't fully considered (at all) that they would be at full stretch already with little or no spare capacity to look after additional brood.

A frame of emerging bees would represent less of a burden but I can see that it could be far from plain and simple sailing.

= = =

An aside :)
Finman, we are well acquainted with your celebrated addition to the English bee keeping language with your contribution of the phrase 'vain space', but wonder if this should be further modified to be 'vane space'. vane = a fin (Fin).
 
At one of our apiary meetings last year the RBI gave a talk on shook swarm, which he strongly recommended.
He was thinking of the disease benefits and advocated treating with oxalic acid.
 
Finman is of course right in that taking a frame of brood to another colony means you will be importing mites, but if the bees in that colony made their own brood it would have mites anyway. I think the point is if you have a weak colony it may well be best to give them reinforcements and accept you will have to treat for varroa later - as you have had to do anyway.

Do colonys which have had a shook swarm need further treatment during the year? Unfortunately, the experience to date suggests they do. They should have less varroa, but varroa has an unpleasant habit of breeding so however small the inital population it will come back.
 
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I love these hives. In normal year they bring 240 lb honey per hive.

Splitted hive has no space to pack nectar what it get from rape.
In two weeks rape may give 120 lb honey. It needs this kind of tower to get it in.

It takes 8 weeks brooding after winter that hive is in this condition.

Kuva_049.jpg
 
???????????????

I too noted that. I, for one, would prefer not to treat with oxalic acid, unless needed. Let alone doing it again. That goes against all the advice as far as I am aware.

Even if the mite is totally eradicated in a colony it will return. At present there is no treatment which is a silver bullet for varroa.

Regards, RAB
 
re ???????

???????????????

I too noted that. I, for one, would prefer not to treat with oxalic acid, unless needed. Let alone doing it again. That goes against all the advice as far as I am aware.

Even if the mite is totally eradicated in a colony it will return. At present there is no treatment which is a silver bullet for varroa.

Regards, RAB


I said this because a number of people have thought it a good idea to treat a taken swarm with oxalic to clear them of 99% or more of the mites as you hive them....this would merely be doing the same thing. However I also realise that a double treatment of Oxalic is neither recommended or something the bees take kindly to, and as for Finman's thoughts about the entire process, well I understand which side of the fence he sits !

regards

S
 
I said this because a number of people have thought it a good idea to treat a taken swarm with oxalic to clear them of 99% or more of the mites as you hive them....this would merely be doing the same thing. However I also realise that a double treatment of Oxalic is neither recommended or something the bees take kindly to, and as for Finman's thoughts about the entire process, well I understand which side of the fence he sits !

regards

S

I think you have 2 different situations there, a shook swarm you know exacty what treatment they have had and so know their varoa load, on the other hand you dont know the treatment history of a swarm that you take off a fence post so treating may well be done as a precautionary measure
 
Taff,

The reference was to the word 'again' meaning more than once (in a year?). Possibly enough damage done by one treatment with oxalic acid, let alone two, inside a year.

There are just as good, or better options (it's not so cold for a start!) in the swarming season.

Exactly my point about a swarm too. It might be the second time for the queen, unless she is a virgin. Even more compelling reason not to treat with oxalic at that time.

Regards, RAB
 
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This is going more stupid and stupid.

If you handle a swarm, it is not twice handling because those swarm bees have died last summer.

In winter there are new bees, and in Britain those wintered bees have all dead in April.

From swarming to wintering there is enough time to get new mites, who knows how and from where.

*********

And if you do a false swarming and you want to get honey from the hive, it is very neceassary to join bees later to hive, which emerge from brood.

Many guys like more varroakeeping than beekeeping. It has a real HYPE!

REMEMBER, FALSE SWARM IS NOT VARROA CONTROL METHOD, IT IS A EMERGENCY JOB WHEN OTHER METHODS HAVE MISSED!

basic methods are now

formic acid
thymol and
3 kind of oxalic acid.

Forget others.


.
 
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This is going more stupid and stupid.

If you handle a swarm, it is not twice handling because those swarm bees have died last summer.

In winter there are new bees, and in Britain those wintered bees have all dead in April.

From swarming to wintering there is enough time to get new mites, who knows how and from where.




.

Finman has a very good point here - in fact if you treated 3 times a year - Winter, Spring and Summer the only bee that would be 'hit more than once' would be the good old queen (which might also be superceded anyway or be a virgin/newly mated queen in a swarm).

regards

S
 
Thats what Hivemaker has been starting to look at,he is concerned what effect OA is having on the queen as she takes a mega dose from the feeding workers.

I may be wrong but I think he is not treating with OA this winter.
 
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BUT, why to treat 3 times a year?

Who does so?

- In New Zealand they have handled several times.

- In southern USA, where they have no brood brake, they have sprayed several times a year hives.

You don't cry that a mite can suck the queen too.
 
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I am saying that allowing the queen to be exposed to OA could cause an early supercedure.
 

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