Thoughts? What’s Happened Here?

[Mabee]

On removing treatment from a hive the other day I spotted some drones so had a quick look to see what the situation was.

Bit of background:
Originally 2 sister queens in 3 frames nucs. Both had bad chalk brood, one really bad and struggled to build up. Combined the two hives at start of treatment and removed the worse of the two queens.
8 weeks on, small amount of bees, drone laying queen and multiple eggs on same frame.

Do you think she’s been superseded?

These are not my bees, i’m just bee sitting them till Spring, if they are still about in Spring! Queens are from a line the keepers wanted to keep which is why i’ve tried everything to keep them going. They’ve been fed, boosted with a swarm and frame of sealed brood…

 

[ericbeaumont]

Do you think she’s been superseded?

Failed supersedure likely. Two dead uncapped larvae in the second photo, and a ragged capping, suggests damage from high varroa load.

 

[Mabee]

Failed supersedure likely. Two dead uncapped larvae in the second photo, and a ragged capping, suggests damage from high varroa load.

I’ve just treated with Apivar, i’d have hoped that would have knocked most mites back. They do also have a chalkbrood problem. It was the multiple eggs in the bottom of the cells which made me wonder if there was a new queen in there?

 

[Nige.Coll]

Looks to me like you've united 2 3 frame nucs one of which was sick.
Chalkbrood can be an issue but rarely holds them back unless it's extreme.
My gut says what you have there is a colony with nosema. Queen is infected also so her insides aren't working properly, workers aren't tending brood or policing it.
Supersedure, I doubt it just a colony that is dying.

 

[Mabee]

Looks to me like you've united 2 3 frame nucs one of which was sick.
Chalkbrood can be an issue but rarely holds them back unless it's extreme.
My gut says what you have there is a colony with nosema. Queen is infected also so her insides aren't working properly, workers aren't tending brood or policing it.
Supersedure, I doubt it just a colony that is dying.

Thank you. They had built up a bit to 4.5 frames (from july) but struggled with chalk brood, one was really bad so I united them to give them some chance. Probably not a good outlook for them then, which I suspected from the dwindling numbers.

 

[Wilco]

If you want to keep trying and there are only a small number, sublimate OA and get them some thymolated syrup. Transfer to a mini mating nuc to reduce dead space and try to keep it sheltered over winter. You'll probably need to feed little and often. Odds of success very low but not quite zero.

 

[Mabee]

If you want to keep trying and there are only a small number, sublimate OA and get them some thymolated syrup. Transfer to a mini mating nuc to reduce dead space and try to keep it sheltered over winter. You'll probably need to feed little and often. Odds of success very low but not quite zero.

ok i'll give that a go, thank you.

 

[boywonder]

Question.... Whilst I agree with much of the analysis above (dwindling, probably as a result of one part being sickly... try feeding thymolated syrup etc...), I personally think that the ragged/partially uncapped brood might simply as there are not (currently) enough bees to cover the brood. What nobody has so far addressed is the laying, which, whilst haphazard in one way (multiple eggs in cells) is also uniform (across adjacent cells), and is very unlikely to be laying workers (eggs are at the bottom of cells). Why can this not be actual, successful superesedure? I have seen a couple of my own colonies reach a similar-looking nadir recently - including one where new and old Queen were cohabiting. Just putting it out there. Based on the limited evidence in the photos, I would transfer the colony back into a poly nuc, try some thymolated syrup (though it's very late) and cross my fingers. Happy to be shot down.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

is very unlikely to be laying workers (eggs are at the bottom of cells)

why not? workers can lay at the bottom of a cell just as easily - this tale about them only laying on the sides is a myth.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Why can this not be actual, successful superesedure?

Yes, it could, but if laying space is restricted laying workers may not have the option to lay in a scattered pattern.

Mabee said the queen was a drone layer; is she still in there?

 

[boywonder]

this tale about them only laying on the sides is a myth.

For real ??? In the colonies I have had/experienced with laying workers, it would have been very unusual to have seen such consistent laying at the base of the cells as in that photo. Maybe I just have short-arsed bees.... but I think that is a sweeping statement, if not downright incorrect/misleading.

 

[boywonder]

why not? workers can lay at the bottom of a cell just as easily - this tale about them only laying on the sides is a myth.

Also - and apologies if I have misread the pictures / OP..... But there is a(n albeit sad-looking, >1yr old) Queen in there, so what are the chances of laying workers?

 

[Antipodes]

Yes, it could, but if laying space is restricted laying workers may nothave the option to lay in a scattered pattern.

Mabee said the queen was a drone layer; is she still in there?

There was a photo of a queen in post #1....so yes, more details are needed. I've seen a queen can lay lots of eggs in a cell before....more than a dozen per cell.... mind I've only seen it when the colony is weak and not a drone laying queen. Mabee...you say boosted with a swarm. How long ago were they boosted with a swarm and how did you do that? New queen from the swarm doing the laying now?

 

[Erichalfbee]

For real ??? In the colonies I have had/experienced with laying workers, it would have been very unusual to have seen such consistent laying at the base of the cells as in that photo. Maybe I just have short-arsed bees.... but I think that is a sweeping statement, if not downright incorrect/misleading.

Not misleading. The statement simply says that it is a myth that laying workers can't lay in the bottom of cell.
It's true because they can and do

Every time I have had laying workers the eggs have been laid on the bottom of the cells. Sometimes I've had multiple eggs sometimes single

`Last year I had a colony that lost its queen on a mating flight presumably. I checked weekly after four weeks. Honey was coming in ...dribs and drabs...and they had three supers on partly capped with maybe half in the brood. In the space of one week practically every spare cell in the supers and in the brood had a single egg in the bottom. There is no way a queen would have laid up all that space

 

[Mabee]

Based on the limited evidence in the photos, I would transfer the colony back into a poly nuc,

They are currently in a double poly nuc, I left the top one on as there are stores in it.

Yes, it could, but if laying space is restricted laying workers may nothave the option to lay in a scattered pattern.

Mabee said the queen was a drone layer; is she still in there?

They are currently in a double nuc so should have plenty space, at the moment (considering putting them just in single nuc)

The queen is still in there (see pic 1)

you say boosted with a swarm. How long ago were they boosted with a swarm and how did you do that?

End of July, a smallish swarm, queen was a drone layer so shook them out, many went to this hive. I also gave them a frame of brood from one colony to boost numbers and they have still struggled on.

 

[Kaz]

For real ??? In the colonies I have had/experienced with laying workers, it would have been very unusual to have seen such consistent laying at the base of the cells as in that photo. Maybe I just have short-arsed bees.... but I think that is a sweeping statement, if not downright incorrect/misleading.

Take a look at this post with a pic of laying worker- laid eggs and the workers up to their armpits laying brazenly as I watched! Post in thread 'Laying workers or new queen?' Laying workers or new queen?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but I think that is a sweeping statement

I'm glad you accept that your statement was a bit sweeping

 

[ericbeaumont]

a sweeping statement, if not downright incorrect/misleading

If comb is not drawn deeply workers will lay at the base of cells.

PS: clearly I wasn't paying attention, because the queen is in one of the photos...

 

[user 819]

Get the varroa /viruses if present under control as they have a big effect on colony decline and the queens lack of laying or laying pattern. Varroa does look to be an issue not only wragged cappings but also the one of the drone with bad wragged wings.

As I mentioned in another thread one can't assume varroa treatment habitually by month or time of year, sometimes action is needed sooner then one may normally do so even in the midst of a summer flow. This is where simulation of OA/Apibioxal is the best option, if carried out correctly.

 

[Mabee]

Get the varroa /viruses if present under control as they have a big effect on colony decline and the queens lack of laying or laying pattern. Varroa does look to be an issue not only wragged cappings but also the one of the drone with bad wragged wings.

As I mentioned in another thread one can't assume varroa treatment habitually by month or time of year, sometimes action is needed sooner then one may normally do so even in the midst of a summer flow. This is where simulation of OA/Apibioxal is the best option, if carried out correctly.

I'm going to go up tomorrow and vape them, and also feed them some thymolated syrup to help boost them. Would you vape them at 5-day intervals or just once?

Also, as I mentioned they are in a double nuc, would you leave it like that or reduce to single?