"Thinking" bees.

[scuttlefish]

Richard Dawkins has some good books if anyone is confused to how bees or any other living organism got to where it is, and how they function. I liked 'unweaving the rainbow'. There is a very good chapter on evolution and genes.

I prefer Darwin's "On the origin of species..." but Dawkings is good too, esp. The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype.

 

[margob99]

I have often wished that if only human beings could take on some of the aspects of collective/hive thinking, we would have less wars, less destruction of the earth and less flame wars in forums. If only some humans were less persuasive, less able to to "market" their messages better than others, less dogmatic, less biased towards a tendency towards individualism, I truly believe bees - and the planet - would have a better chance of surviving the virus called humanity.

But hey, that's just imho

What about the fact that I've noticed some of the colonies I've worked with have begun to "recognise" me when I appear? Their behaviour changes when I approach, as if they have become conditioned to recognise the traumatic nature of a looming hive inspection (no matter how gentle I am, I might add!)

 

[gavin]

Programmatically one could say "i rated my site as an 8, she is advertising a 5 rated site ....

Yup, but in this case the decision making process seems to be:

- we've reached the threshold for support for 'our' site (50 scouts or whatever)
- now, adverts for our site are 'good', adverts for other sites are 'bad'
- stop the bad adverts

Whatever the thought processes, as you imply the storing and remembering of these things is surprising. What particularly surprises me is that they make decisions based on technical information that they gathered sometime earlier and using interpretations of abstract communication presented to them. That is impressive.

Then you start to fret that they are just insects after all, and we can look a little into their minds because they are social and they use communication. Are all insects capable of thought processes like this?!

 

[MandF]

What about the fact that I've noticed some of the colonies I've worked with have begun to "recognise" me when I appear? Their behaviour changes when I approach, as if they have become conditioned to recognise the traumatic nature of a looming hive inspection (no matter how gentle I am, I might add!)

It might be down to the gorilla suit you started wearing?

 

[MandF]

Yup, but in this case the decision making process seems to be:

- we've reached the threshold for support for 'our' site (50 scouts or whatever)
- now, adverts for our site are 'good', adverts for other sites are 'bad'
- stop the bad adverts

Whatever the thought processes, as you imply the storing and remembering of these things is surprising. What particularly surprises me is that they make decisions based on technical information that they gathered sometime earlier and using interpretations of abstract communication presented to them. That is impressive.

Then you start to fret that they are just insects after all, and we can look a little into their minds because they are social and they use communication. Are all insects capable of thought processes like this?!

Ah ok, you are referring to the second head butting phenomenum, the "glasgow" group headbutting. Yes, there is another process/trigger there to say "we have made our decision - lets stop any more advertising". Actually, even the recognition that they have reached a quorum in the first place. It certainly does seem something more is going on there, I remember being told about "new" (probably 20 yrs old!) research a couple of years ago, about how they now believe bees communicate by drumming on comb. Whatever they are doing, and however they do it, it is impressive.

 

[Ely]

I have often wished that if only human beings could take on some of the aspects of collective/hive thinking, we would have less wars, less destruction of the earth and less flame wars in forums. If only some humans were less persuasive, less able to to "market" their messages better than others, less dogmatic, less biased towards a tendency towards individualism, I truly believe bees - and the planet - would have a better chance of surviving the virus called humanity.

But hey, that's just imho

What about the fact that I've noticed some of the colonies I've worked with have begun to "recognise" me when I appear? Their behaviour changes when I approach, as if they have become conditioned to recognise the traumatic nature of a looming hive inspection (no matter how gentle I am, I might add!)

Hitler among others practised mass genocide. Does that count?

 

[clv101]

...where the hive make-up precludes the natural brood nest formation of the colony, sorted out as the optimum by what we now understand as evolution, for about one hundred and fifty years.

I'm not sure I agree that evolution can be associated with "optimum". The very nature of evolution often produces totally bizarre solutions to life's problems - it also, hasn't finished at some optimum endpoint.

 

[E1M]

All very interesting on such a wonderful hot steamy day, but all a bit deep methinks.
After all bees have been around since.......well who knows when and I think that we humans tend to put our thought process in place for other creatures.
Lighten up everyone and look at this.
Something to do while the sun shines.
http://www.alabees.com/bee trivia.htm

 

[Chris Luck]

Too deep and serious? Frankly I've found a couple of things in this thread very interesting, wash boarding I've never seen or even heard of before.

Chris

 

[E1M]

Wash-boarding, didn't Lonnie Donegan introduce that?
Does your chewing gum...............

 

[jackbee]

http://www.alabees.com/bee trivia.htm

that was interesting in parts but

8.5 miles - that seeems a long way!!

and I thought bees did sleep of sorts, not just rest

 

[MandF]

and they rest in cells?!

 

[Chris Luck]

8.5 miles - that seeems a long way!!

I seem to remember a study that had bees flying 12 miles+ out of Leeds for Heather.

Chris

 

[BeeJayBee]

I'm not at all sure about this south facing preference thing .....

It's the same problem with height. Generally I find they are between 2 and 4 metres BUT that's where the cavities are concentrated, I see them at ground level under large old oak trees and way up at the top of a castle tower, (that's north side as well).

One of Seeley's online appearances acknowledges that when he was originally researching feral colonies, which was quite a long time ago, he found them where he was expecting to find them. He's since found as many where he didn't expect to find them - at ground level, a lot higher and with entrances facing in other directions. Sorry, I can't recall the site to link.

I seem to remember a study that had bees flying 12 miles+ out of Leeds for Heather.

Now I do recall the link for that, it was done by Prof Ratnieks and mentioned during a talk he gave.

How far do honey bees forage? dated 2000 http://lasi.group.shef.ac.uk/pdf/rbeeimpr2000.pdf PDF

honey bees will forage
up to 12 kilometers or more from the hive

and
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/lasi/sussexplan/dances

LASI research has shown that honey bees fly up to 14km to highly rewarding patches of heather

I think we forget that not everything humans do is 'rational', especially at times of stress. Some of the things we do are innately human, other things are innately mammalian or innately 'animal', it's instinct. The one thing that sets us aside from other creatures is that we reckon we can think, and nothing else can do it anywhere near as well as we can and we think we always know more, and better, than almost all the creatures we come into contact with. It's more comfortable that way.

 

[TBRNoTB]

Out of interest, do we know if their chosen entrance is always the original point of ingress? Or do they ever make an alternative "choice"?

Ie if bees entered a space on the top horizontal surface, and there was also a hole on the side, would they "choose" the one on the side?

This would show whether they did in fact have any preference for an entrance, or are simply programmed to have 1 entrance and block any other holes given the chance. No "thoughts" about ventilation/insulation or even the suitability of their current entrance... presumably that part is the work of the scout bees before they move to their new location!

MandF
Shirley to 99.99% of beekeepers they are insects in a box/es and to believe they are sentient/instinctive is like believing Pavlovs dog liked the sound of a bell? Would not now be a time to create a philosophy thread? At least it then it would not degenerate into a slanging match:rolleyes

 

[REDWOOD]

who told birds to fly south for the winter, same as, end

 

[Chris Luck]

I think we forget that not everything humans do is 'rational', especially at times of stress. Some of the things we do are innately human, other things are innately mammalian or innately 'animal', it's instinct. The one thing that sets us aside from other creatures is that we reckon we can think, and nothing else can do it anywhere near as well as we can and we think we always know more, and better, than almost all the creatures we come into contact with. It's more comfortable that way.

As you say, it's more comfortable that way.

Chris

 

[Alabamaeee]

A good example of washboarding for those that have not seen it before

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbwumXVTOz8[/ame]

 

[jackbee]

who told birds to fly south for the winter, same as, end

that's evolution for you - damn clever stuff

 

[REDWOOD]

Sorry no such thing as evolution, only creation