Swarming or Supersedure?

[Otleybee]

Just completed my second inspection of the year and one hive is going well with brood over 6 frames and plenty of bees eggs, capped brood some drone brood and honey. I have not seen any drones yet. 9 frames are drawn so I put super on to give them more space. They are on a standard national brood box with an open mesh floor.

I found two queen cells with larvae in. There were other cups around but I forgot to put my reading glasses on so I could not see eggs in them.

How do I tell if this hive preparing to swarm or supersede the queen?

I am all set up to do an artificial swarm if I can find the queen that is!

Your advice as ever would be appreciated.

 

[Friar Tuck]

Sound like swam cells to me !

 

[djg]

As a rule of thumb, supercedure might involve just a single cell, high up on the frame. With your two Q cells with larvae and some other Q cell suspects, these multiple cells sound more like swarmers.

I think your AS plan is the right one. Good luck with hunting the Q (might be easier when you are all set for the AS manipulation, rather than the quickening pulse when you spot the Q cells and your mind starts racing ahead!)

 

[Otleybee]

First AS day tomorrow then.

 

[RoofTops]

Remember you don't have to find the queen to do an AS. Just put a brood box of foundation on the old site, with a few frames from the middle removed. Shake and brush all the bees from the old frames into the gap made by the missing frames. Replace the missing frames of foundation and put on a queen excluder on top and then the old brood box with all the old frames, in which you have removed all but one open queen cell. The young bees will be drawn up into the old box by the brood but the queen will remain behind. After a few hours remove the old box and place it on a new site a few yards away. Job done.

 

[Midland Beek]

You need to try and determine whether your bees want to supersede or swarm. The queen cells in each case are often different.

You got to rearrange the frames in the BB for a start so that the bees transfer their attentions to the undrawn frames.

And ... are you sure they were really queen cells? Your bees might just be starting to rear drones now, and sometimes a drone cell can look like a queen cell if it is on the bottom edge of a comb.

 

[Heather]

I did AS today. Queen there- loads of brood, so she is good- but the little b.....s have 2 capped Q cells and one uncapped.
I dumped the uncapped and removed one capped to my home incubator, and left them with one lovely dimpled queen cell. Split them into 2 hives with Q in the non Q cell brood.
But quite a lot of drone in my colonies- I do use a super frame in every brood box to encourage drones, and it seems to work.

 

[warts]

Remember you don't have to find the queen to do an AS. Just put a brood box of foundation on the old site, with a few frames from the middle removed. Shake and brush all the bees from the old frames into the gap made by the missing frames. Replace the missing frames of foundation and put on a queen excluder on top and then the old brood box with all the old frames, in which you have removed all but one open queen cell. The young bees will be drawn up into the old box by the brood but the queen will remain behind. After a few hours remove the old box and place it on a new site a few yards away. Job done.

Hi Rooftops
This sounds far easier than trying to find the queen first. So, so long as I am careful when I shake & brush the bees off the frames, how good a chance have I got that the queen is in the bottom box, or more to the point, how fool-proof is this system? Because sometimes I have no problem finding the queen, but sometimes...well...let's just say it's the best 'where's Wally' game I've ever seen.

 

[RoofTops]

Hi Rooftops
This sounds far easier than trying to find the queen first. So, so long as I am careful when I shake & brush the bees off the frames, how good a chance have I got that the queen is in the bottom box, or more to the point, how fool-proof is this system? Because sometimes I have no problem finding the queen, but sometimes...well...let's just say it's the best 'where's Wally' game I've ever seen.

Lower the frame into the gap and give it a good shake, being careful not to bang the frame against the sides of the hive. Then lift the frame up and have a look at it. Most of the bees will have fallen off already so if the queen is still hanging on she should be visible. However, the queen's heavier abdomen should ensure she fell off with the first shake.

Shaking all the bees bees off frames is harder as the frames get bigger - almost impossible, for example, in my experience with a Dadant, so you won't get them all off unless you use a brush. If you don't have a brush just use something like a fern (not fully out now I know!) or a bit of leafy twig from a hedge, which is what I used today.

There is a video somewhere showing me doing a shook swarm without finding the queen. Same principle and it has always worked for me.

 

[warts]

Thank you Rooftops. I will look for the video.

 

[Skyhook]

Remember you don't have to find the queen to do an AS. Just put a brood box of foundation on the old site, with a few frames from the middle removed. Shake and brush all the bees from the old frames into the gap made by the missing frames. Replace the missing frames of foundation and put on a queen excluder on top and then the old brood box with all the old frames, in which you have removed all but one open queen cell. The young bees will be drawn up into the old box by the brood but the queen will remain behind. After a few hours remove the old box and place it on a new site a few yards away. Job done.

Nice tip!!

 

[Otleybee]

First AS completed this afternoon and it could not have gone better. Took a little while to find the queen but when I did she was on a frame of brood with no queen cells.

The rest was text book Ted Hooper AS method. No sealed QC so I can move the hive to the other side next week without worrying about losing a virgin queen.

I will see if I can take a frame with a QC on after a week and give it to my weak hive. If I do this do I need to kill the queen in there that is not doing so well?

I was all set with my brush in case I did not find the queen but thankfully it was not necessary. They were getting a bit cross as I took a while to find the queen and I took two stings through the nitrile gloves I was using. I might use stronger gloves for this next time!

Thanks again for your advice.

 

[Midland Beek]

I just wouldn't get killing any queens just yet. Queen matings are in the category of 'unlikely' in April in many parts of the UK. You've had to do an AS, but a better scenario would have been to do one in May/June.

 

[Otleybee]

I tend to agree that it is early but is there any way I could have held them back. Destroying QC was the other option I suppose!

Hopefully I have not just committed another newbie error!

 

[oliver90owner]

To avoid casts you need to move the hive just a day before emergence, so there are few flying bees at the time she would leave as a secondary swarm - so a week after sealing. As the queen cell is ripe by then moving is less likely to spoil the pupating queen.

A good plan might be a ripe queen cell along with a handful (cupful, or whatever) into a mating nuc.

After all, the reports of swarms are coming in thick and fast and for every prime swarm there will be a virgin requiring mating in three weeks time and for every cast, one to mate in about the next couple of weeks or so. I just hope the bees have got the weather forecasting right.

Regards, RAB

 

[Otleybee]

Well she swarmed anyway!!! At about 1400 she set off and landed in a tree about 50m away. Thankfully she was about 15ft up so with a ladder and a bit of tree climbing from my son we got the swarm! Also very kind of her to swarm on a weekend!!!

HM tried to get off again but I brushed her off a garage wall and onto the white sheet we were using and then she walked into the hive. Will go and collect the hive later when they have stopped flying.

So a very busy beekeeping weekend. AS yesterday and swarm collection today.