Swarmed bees (holding/breaking cluster) - Advice - Big post - Sorry

[boywonder]

All - I empathise with steve56616 and others (see http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29738) who are not enjoying their beekeeping to the full at the moment, due to seemingly relentless swarm management. I started the season with one hive, and - up to yesterday - had 3 boxes ... all in various states of Q+, Q-, Q?.

(See the thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29333, if it is interesting to know how I got to this point).

Following that post, I put a test frame into the Q? hive, and noticed them (less than a week later) building-out one (charged) queen cell on that, and - more curiously - there were also two charged queen cells on a frame from the original AS (where there had (until then, and even then, with the exception of these two weird QCs) across the whole hive been NO evidence of any queen laying). All 3 QCs looked like they were shaping up to be inadequate and stunted, so I was resigned to these not being viable, and ultimately to these bees remaining queenless and requiring re-uniting. So I just left them. Weird scenario though. Any ideas ?

In the Q- (just swarmed) hive, I reduced to 1 QC, 4 days after the prime swarm had issued.

... and then resolved to leave all my boxes alone for 3 weeks, for the situation to stabilise. I thought that if the Q? hive did produce any swarms, these would be small cast swarms from runty queens, and I'd be happy to put my hands over my eyes and let them go. I strongly hoped (sorry - hope is not a good strategy - but I've been working away a lot recently, so can only generally inspect at weekends) that the Q- hive would not build any more QCs.

So, yesterday - having extracted my first ever crop I wandered up the garden with a beer (3pm), to contemplate my success, only to hear the roar of bees coming from a 40ft conifer, about 15m from my hives.

Not one cluster of bees, but (seemingly) 2 distinct (and fairly large) clusters. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh ! Neighbours in barbeque mode etc... so not something I could ignore.

I got the whole of the lower-hanging cluster into a cardboard box, and they did not dissipate. An hour later, these seemed to have stabilised, and attracted some other bees in.

In the interim, my attention turned to the second cluster - at the very top of the tree. Well, this was a major operation, which could have turned very nasty (partly due to the height / stability - but also as I took stings to my face, through my veil). Bad news. However, I did manage to recover the bulk of the cluster into a cardboard box. I was clearly hoping that the entourage would follow suit ... but they did not ... resolving to stay up the tree and regroup. Here, the assumption was that - if I had not captured the queen, then the thousands of bees I had in the box would have dissipated and regrouped with the others at the top of the tree. They did not.

So, at 5pm, I had:

- the initial happy group in a cardboard box
- a second (confused (?), but stable) group in a cardboard box
- a group still up the tree
- no (or v limited) spare kit

At this point, I kicked into 'oh f*** it' mode. I was not prepared to go back up the tree again.

So, I put 2 spare supers on top of each other, and placed on top of a spare floor. I robbed a broodless 14*12 frame with stores from my Q? box, and stuck that in (for now), smeared the top of the frame with lemongrass oil, got both cardboard boxes, and chucked the contents of both (c.a. 10,000 bees ? w. possibly two queens - possibly one - but probably none) into the set-up, and walked away.

Random and completely barking.

Anyhow, this morning, the bees in the tree had gone, and there are plenty of bees coming and going from my new makeshift setup - just like they've always lived there. I am buggered if I know what to do now.

I suspect the advice will be to:

a) get hold of another brood box (or nuc), and to stick them in there (in the same location) with foundation or drawn comb
b) add a test frame (from my Q+ box) to see whether they build any QCs, to ascertain whether they are queenright

??????????

ANY advice much appreciated. Thanks.

I am very, very curious though to understand how/why these swarmed 'clusters' of bees are sticking together - potentially in the absence of a queen in their midst ???? I would have expected the bees in one or both of the cardboard boxes to have dissipated, and regrouped in the tree (with the queen).

Confused ? Me ??

VERY

 

[oliver90owner]

reduced to 1 QC, 4 days after the prime swarm had issued.

Not long enough. There is the possibility they may draw more q/cells on 3 day old larvae.

Far better, IMO, to mark your chosen cells and leave the lot for 6 days and then cull the unwanted cells, the exception being to remove capped cells at the time as an accurate emergence time is unpredictable. They are less likely to draw further cells if done that way. Seems common sense to me but I may be being too simplistic?

A frame of brood on a stick, or in a box, presented to the swarm if inaccessible, is a far better way than getting stung on a high ladder.

Look for bees with backsides in the air and fanning away when a swarm is caught. It gives a big clue as to whether queenie is amonst the throng.

IF these are casts from your previously swarmed colonies, there is only one person to take responsibility for them. If that is the case, stop making life difficult for both yourself and your bees and get the job done properly in the first place.

Queen cells pupate for 8 days; that takes any uncapped cells through to the following weekend, so plenty of time for A/S management. Draw a time line and see for yourself.

 

[boywonder]

Thanks (again) Oliver90Owner. Not for the first time.

You are - as I am - thinking that the casts issued from my Q- hive which was rearing a new queen. It would also account for the large number of bees.

I wholly accept what you say about timings, and I would ideally have left tearing down cells until 6 or 7 days after the event.

-

This is the problem with working (specifically working away) ! ... and that the bees do not do 'mon-fri'.

Plotting it out on a timeline is really helpful - but it just confirms what you and I know. If I had been able to inspect the following weekend (doubtful as it widdled-it down all weekend), this would also have been too late for effective management, as I may already had a queen (or queens) hatch. In that case, I may have already had a cast problem. I would certainly have had to try and locate a Q, before having the confidence to tear down all other QCs. In all probablity the quick job would have been to reduce to 1 QC at that point. Worst case from that point = 1 cast.

Anyway it is as it is. Another lesson learnt.

Would you suggest that I had more than 1 cast issue yesterday (hence the 2 main clusters of bees) ? If so, this might lend credence to the fact that the first cluster had a queen. I did see some nasonov-style bum wagling going on.

Also, what are the thoughts (if any) on the partial collection of the higher cluster ? Is it possible that these were disorientated, and that the queen was in the ball still on the tree? Nice tip about using the frame w. brood ... I'm going to try and You-Tube that.

Either way, by the sound of it, the bees I have so unceremoniously 'homed' are possibly with (unmated) Q (??). I guess I just need to home them properly, stay vigilant and hope that swarm mania has come to an end.

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