Swarm taking over an occupied nuc

[B+.]

OK. I should say up-front that I would be sceptical if I read this, but I was in the apiary and watched it happen myself.

On Sunday evening ~6pm a swarm came in. It alighted on one of my mating hives (which are Paynes Langstroth polynucs - big enough to be almost a hive in itself). This polynuc contained a nucleus of 1-2 frames of brood and a frame of stores and a few empty combs -as I would normally do). I knew it had a marked virgin in because I had introduced her only a couple of days before.
The swarm was quite big and all over the outside of the nuc. When I opened it up after I had finished what I was doing, I could see that the newcomers were fighting with the original occupants and had balled my queen. Eventually, they stung her. I was fascinated because I'd never actually seen this happen quite like this. Has anyone else seen this happen?

 

[Michael Palmer]

A regular occurrence in the SW States...called a usurpation swarm. One of the ways africanized colonies take over an area. Also seen in Virginia...Wyatt Magnum has spoken of seeing this in his nucs. I'll try to add links...

More Usurpation: Colony Take-Over by Summer Swarms - American ...

usurpation-when-one-colony-takes-over-another

 

[B+.]

A regular occurrence in the SW States...called a usurpation swarm. One of the ways africanized colonies take over an area. Also seen in Virginia...Wyatt Magnum has spoken of seeing this in his nucs. I'll try to add links...

More Usurpation: Colony Take-Over by Summer Swarms - American ...

usurpation-when-one-colony-takes-over-another

Yes. This is exactly what I saw. I haven't seen it in over 30 years of beekeeping in the UK but that is definitely it. I wish I had taken some video but I'd left my phone at home.

I did see a second ball which didn't seem as big as the first (containing my virgin queen - marked with a numbered disk). I teased them both apart but didn't see another queen. I wonder how common this is among bees in the UK. It was weird that I happened to be in the apiary and saw the whole thing unfold before my eyes! Maybe, beekeepers here just don't see it - I only saw it because my virgin queen was clearly makerd. The strange thing is: there were plenty of unoccupied boxes they could have chosen - they didn't need to invade an occupied one.

I closed them up afterwards so I can go back and take another look for a queen. I wonder if shes mated, or a virgin.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’m sure this happened to the wild colony at the bottom of my garden. Early summer last year there were few bees and I was sure they were struggling. Then the following day there were so many that lots were spending the night outside on the front of the box

 

[masterBK]

Have seen this happen myself about ten years ago helping out a friend check his 30+ hives. A prime swarm from one of his colonies landed on the front of a different hive (about 5 hives away) housing a relatively small colony and went in with no obvious fighting. After about 20 minutes or so they dragged a queen out and dumped her body on the ground in front of the hive. The strange thing was the queen killed was the one from the swarm and queen retained was the younger one from the hive (we knew this because they were marked different year colours). I suppose a younger queen will usually win a fight with an older one but I thought that in a case of usurpation the queen of a usurped hive would be killed by the workers of the swarm.

 

[Repwoc]

OK. I should say up-front that I would be sceptical if I read this, but I was in the apiary and watched it happen myself.

On Sunday evening ~6pm a swarm came in. It alighted on one of my mating hives (which are Paynes Langstroth polynucs - big enough to be almost a hive in itself). This polynuc contained a nucleus of 1-2 frames of brood and a frame of stores and a few empty combs -as I would normally do). I knew it had a marked virgin in because I had introduced her only a couple of days before.
The swarm was quite big and all over the outside of the nuc. When I opened it up after I had finished what I was doing, I could see that the newcomers were fighting with the original occupants and had balled my queen. Eventually, they stung her. I was fascinated because I'd never actually seen this happen quite like this. Has anyone else seen this happen?

Yes - a couple of years ago in my back garden. I watched the swarm invade a nuc I had introduced a new queen to a day or two previously. When I opened it up I found the introduced queen still in her cage, so an easy rescue.

 

[B+.]

Yes - a couple of years ago in my back garden. I watched the swarm invade a nuc I had introduced a new queen to a day or two previously. When I opened it up I found the introduced queen still in her cage, so an easy rescue.

This seems to be a lot more common than I thought. Imagine going 30+ years and never witnessing it? Mind you, none of my bees are at home so unless I'm actually in the apiary when it happens, I probably wouldn't see it.
I have mixed feelings about this: one the one hand, I lost a virgin queen I hoped to mate, and the bees that were in the colony - but, on the other hand, I've seen something I have never seen before - and I gained a swarm that I'll requeen later anyway. So, a positive experience on the whole.

 

[rolande]

We see it two or three times a year, usually in August or early September and usually the result of bees from one of our smaller mating nucs making a move on one of the miniplus boxes, a common feature of these hive invasions seems to be a questionable queen in the attacked hive.


Some of the carnage that occurs when the attacked colony puts up a good fight:

 

[rolande]

This seems to be a lot more common than I thought. Imagine going 30+ years and never witnessing it? Mind you, none of my bees are at home so unless I'm actually in the apiary when it happens, I probably wouldn't see it.

I often wonder if some of the reported 'mating swarms' might actually be this kind of behaviour.

Regards location, we're lucky to have mating hives around the workshop.

 

[rolande]

This one, unlike the usual ones we see was a month ago and they came into the apiary from outside

 

[rolande]

The strange thing was the queen killed was the one from the swarm and queen retained was the younger one from the hive (we knew this because they were marked different year colours). I suppose a younger queen will usually win a fight with an older one but I thought that in a case of usurpation the queen of a usurped hive would be killed by the workers of the swarm.

I've seen both outcomes, it appears to be a high risk endeavour.

 

[B+.]

Obviously, there's a lot more to swarming, and bees, than we thought!

 

[sean-a]

Every day a school day!

 

[Ian123]

A couple of years ago I had a bait hive that I noticed some activity. I lifted the lid and found a small orange size cluster with a couple of fingers of drawn comb. Being in the middle of 10 other things I thought I’d leave them till later. Later turned out to be 2-3 weeks, I lifted lid needing rather more force than expected and found the small cast was filling a single brood As Michael said common with AHB and well documented.

 

[oxnatbees]

I have heard of usurpation swarms, but thought they only occurred in areas where suitable nest cavities were in short supply. Interesting that they are common with AHB. I suppose, though risky, it does mean the invaders seize the assets of comb and stores.

A friend once saw a swarm set up home in his TBH... Then a few days later a 2nd one arrived and moved in too. The swarms did not fight but set up nests at opposite ends of the TBH! He suspected they came from the same mother colony, so smelled similar. There was a hive on an allotment next door, and both came from that direction.

B+, you say the usurpers stung the original queen. I thought workers "never sting queens", that's why they ball them, do you know if it was a worker or the new queen who stung her?

 

[Ian123]

[QUOTE="oxnatbees, post: 773839, member: 8272"
B+, you say the usurpers stung the original queen. I thought workers "never sting queens", that's why they ball them, do you know if it was a worker or the new queen who stung her?
[/QUOTE]
Workers often kill sting queens. Try some introductions.

 

[B+.]

I have heard of usurpation swarms, but thought they only occurred in areas where suitable nest cavities were in short supply. Interesting that they are common with AHB. I suppose, though risky, it does mean the invaders seize the assets of comb and stores.

A friend once saw a swarm set up home in his TBH... Then a few days later a 2nd one arrived and moved in too. The swarms did not fight but set up nests at opposite ends of the TBH! He suspected they came from the same mother colony, so smelled similar. There was a hive on an allotment next door, and both came from that direction.

B+, you say the usurpers stung the original queen. I thought workers "never sting queens", that's why they ball them, do you know if it was a worker or the new queen who stung her?

Yes. They were balling at first but, as I teased the ball apart I could see they were stinging her too. The aggression wasn't limited to the queen thugh. The workers that were in the nuc were attacked too.
I checked the nuc last night and didn't see a queen. Obviously, I could have missed it but I'm pretty good at spotting queens usually.

 

[rolande]

I now leave them alone for a couple of weeks because Ive found that opening too soo can just start the squabbling off again and the surviving queen then gets balled.

Interesting phenomenon.

-----------------

Willie Robson mentions (in his book 'Reflections') that his father had told him about these hive invasions but that after taking control the swarm would then decamp again, taking the workers from the conquered colony with it. Not something I've seen myself.

 

[rolande]

OK, bit of an addition to one of my previous posts:

Post #8 in this thread, I included 2 photos but had forgotten some of the specifics. Luckily I wrote a brief description on fb, which I'm attaching as two screen shots, note the post was dated 20/09/18:




Edit: there were lots more miniplus colonies in the apiary to choose from but both small colonies chose this one.

 

[oxnatbees]

Thanks for the clarifications and observations, B+ and Ian123.

I had wondered if swarms usurping a queenless colony would need to fight, or be welcomed - and Rolande just answered that too!