Swarm control, can't find the queen

[Colinkemp]

I have reason to believe that my single broodbox National hive is planning to swarm.
I have searched for the queen but have never seen her. There is ample sealed brood and eggs.
I am planning to use the Pagden artificial swarm method.
My query is, when it says to move the parent hive more than a meter, preferably more, is it OK to move it, say, 250 meters?
I aim to finish with 2 colonies and having the second 250 meters away would be very convenient.
On a second point, when the frame of eggs and young brood is moved into the Artificial Swarm hive, is it moved with nurse bees, or are theses removed by brushing? I am only concerned about chilling the brood.
Thanks in anticipation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have reason to believe that my single broodbox National hive is planning to swarm.
I have searched for the queen but have never seen her. There is ample sealed brood and eggs.
I am planning to use the Pagden artificial swarm method.
My query is, when it says to move the parent hive more than a meter, preferably more, is it OK to move it, say, 250 meters?
I aim to finish with 2 colonies and having the second 250 meters away would be very convenient.
On a second point, when the frame of eggs and young brood is moved into the Artificial Swarm hive, is it moved with nurse bees, or are theses removed by brushing? I am only concerned about chilling the brood.
Thanks in anticipation.

The first move is fine.
As for the AS keep the bees on it and shake some more in.
I often empty a super of bees into an AS but two brood frames worth is just as good.

 

[Boston Bees]

But ... Pagden (the official version, anyway) surely requires finding the queen ..... ?

What is your reason for thinking that they are about to swarm?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have reason to believe that my single broodbox National hive is planning to swarm.

Why?

 

[Finman]

It is not believing, if you see queen cells, but if you do not see queen cells, it is believing.

When you do an AS, move the hive 3 metres.
1 metre is too short.

Separating the flying swarm is ok in 250 metres, but at the end you should join the hiveparts and joining is not possible in long distance.

 

[jeff33]

Yes, why do you believe they're planning to swarm and how would you plan to do any kind of AS if you have never found the queen?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My query is, when it says to move the parent hive more than a meter, preferably more, is it OK to move it, say, 250 meters?

yes - but only if by the 'parent hive' you mean all the brood and bees but minus the queen

On a second point, when the frame of eggs and young brood is moved into the Artificial Swarm hive,

where during a Pagden does it say to do that?
you should leave the queen on one frame with preferably emerging brood but definitely laying space, with the rest being frames of foundation in the original position - the rest of the brood, nurse bees and whatever gets moved away in the new hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

yes - but only if by the 'parent hive' you mean all the brood and bees but minus the queen

where during a Pagden does it say to do that?
you should leave the queen on one frame with preferably emerging brood but definitely laying space, with the rest being frames of foundation in the new hive in original position - the rest of the brood, nurse bees and whatever gets moved away in the old hive.

 

[user 819]

What is ample sealed brood and eggs ?

 

[Finman]

This advising has went difficult. Never heard about official version.¹

 

[Finman]

But ... Pagden (the official version, anyway) surely requires finding the queen ..... ?

But if the queen is gone with cut wing, you must do the AS with queen cell.

 

[jool]

If you can not find the queen when doing a AS set up the new brood box on original site and shake/ brush all bees into it. Place queen excluder then brood box with all the original frames on top. Leave for an hour or so. Nurse bees will return upstairs and queen will be in lower box with flying bees. AS as normal.

 

[jool]

If you can not find the queen when doing a AS set up the new brood box on original site and shake/ brush all bees into it. Place queen excluder then brood box with all the original frames on top. Leave for an hour or so. Nurse bees will return upstairs and queen will be in lower box with flying bees. AS as normal.

Also never leave eggs with the AS queen. I have had them draw a queen cell and still swarm!

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you can not find the queen when doing a AS set up the new brood box on original site and shake/ brush all bees into it. Place queen excluder then brood box with all the original frames on top. Leave for an hour or so. Nurse bees will return upstairs and queen will be in lower box with flying bees. AS as normal.

Yes that works well and it’s easy to do

 

[Boston Bees]

Or use this method

Swarm control and elusive queens - The Apiarist

 

[Finman]

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Also never leave eggs with the AS queen. I have had them draw a queen cell and still swarm!

The AS often continues swarming if you do it on ready combs.

If you give foundations to the AS, the colony will not continue swarming fever.

 

[Colinkemp]

Or use this method

Swarm control and elusive queens - The Apiarist

Thanks everyone for the advice. At last inspection Tuesday there were queen cups, so far without eggs.
There are 4/5 frames of BIAS and a couple of undrawn frames in the brood box.
My intention was to use the method outlined in the Apiarist link from Boston Bees, Stage 1, AS without finding the queen.
I will check again today, weather permitting, I just wanted to be ready if the queen cups developed into Q cells with eggs having never done AS before.

 

[Boston Bees]

Thanks everyone for the advice. At last inspection Tuesday there were queen cups, so far without eggs.
There are 4/5 frames of BIAS and a couple of undrawn frames in the brood box.
My intention was to use the method outlined in the Apiarist link from Boston Bees, Stage 1, AS without finding the queen.
I will check again today, weather permitting, I just wanted to be ready if the queen cups developed into Q cells with eggs having never done AS before.

As you inspect, have a nuc box to hand and look for the queen as you go. You never know, you might get lucky this time. If you do happen to see her, put that frame into a separate nuc temporarily, so you know where she is.

If you do find the queen, and there are swarm cells (i.e. cells with at least eggs a couple of days old, or larvae) then you can carry out the nucleus method instead ( The nucleus method - The Apiarist ) which is simpler than the "no-queen" method.

But if you can't see the queen, and there are swarm cells, carry on with your original plan.

PS: One way to make finding the queen easier is to get rid of all the flying bees temporarily. To do this, move the hive to another stand and put a new box/nuc, perhaps with a single frame in, on the original stand, to give the flying bees somewhere to congregate while you inspect. You can even then wait for a few minutes to bleed off more flying bees. Then inspect the main box. As soon as I find swarm cells I move the hive to another stand before I go through it.

 

[Finman]

Wrong alarm.

Every hives make queen cups. They mean nothing.

 

[oliver90owner]

I think the Pagden method involves moving the parent colony ‘to one side’. Nothing other than that. Fairly adjacent is quite good enough. Moving the parent colony 250m at that stage is wrong. A day or so before the new queen is to emerge, the parent box should be moved a bit away from its original position (say 3m or more). That would mean moving a box 250m three times - seems like b. hard work!

That would be the time to move the parent colony 250m, shirley? Actually, it might be better not to move a hive with a cocooned queen, if the traverse would be less than smooth (not bumpy) although if the cell is ‘ripe’ the queen should not be damaged - but she will still be soft, in the cell, so why take any risk.

If you are not aware, moving the boxes as per Pagden helps a) to initially populate the AS part with flying bees and b) to reduce the chances of a cast swarm if more than one queen cell is left in situ (normally one would leave two cells as insurance against one being a dud).

Do correct me, if I am wrong.