Swarm advice

[MandF]

Ok, situation I have is I started again this season with 2 nucs, one I got in April, one in May (thanks G!).

I have 3 brood boxes (normally used brood & half), of which 2 were in use from those nucs, plus the other I had out as a bait hive with a couple of old brood combs since april.

The early hive started charging queen cells last weekend, so yesterday afternoon I did an AS, using the bait hive brood box. So now 2 hives from nucs, 1 hive is AS. So far so good.

Yesterday when I dismantled the bait hive, I put the 2 brood combs into the first nuc box, which had also been left out since May as a bait hive (speculative), just to put them somewhere more than anything.

Return home after day out today only to find that nuc is now home to a swarm!! So from 2 hives yesterday morning, I now have 4. I assume it is a cast swarm as it chose to go into a small nuc, and there arent as many bees as I would expect in a prime swarm. I just put in 3 frames of foundation to go with the 2 brood combs which were in there.

Anyhow, as the current nuc is a ropey one I didnt mind leaving out in all weathers but its not very good for ongoing management, and because I dont have another spare brood box, I am planning to move them tomorrow into my polynuc. (or should I leave them to settle a bit longer?)

I do not want to expand from 2 hives through winter, the AS I will reunite with its parent later in the season, along with the new queen (as long as their temperament is good).

The obvious option for the new swarm is to unite with the newer hive, which is still relatively small (still not drawn all the brood frames). Assuming I have a cast swarm, and again its temperament is good, I could use this new queen to also replace the queen to go through winter.

My question is therefore what is the best course of action now - I need to wait until this queen starts laying - to see if she is mated. So how long should I leave them in the poly nuc, if they can stay in this until ready to unite (they may outgrow it quickly?) what is the best way to unite a nuc into a hive - I am thinking 2x shallows (as I have no spare brood box) & newspaper over the existing hive? If using the queen do I remove the queen from the lower brood first and put the nuc frames above, with new queen?

Thanks for any advice! First AS and first swarm in less than 24 hours!!

 

[MandF]

Of course, the other consideration is disease, and how to ensure the new swarm is clean before uniting?

 

[oliver90owner]

My first thought was why a bait hive if you don't want more bees? Let the swarm go to someone that needs it!

Next thought is what is the rush, if you only intend reducing to two colonies for the winter.

 

[MandF]

I wanted a swarm to boost the second nuc I got, it is just that because the main bait hive failed to lure anything, I had resigned myself to not getting a crop off the smaller hive and to simply allow it to build up "naturally".

Now I have some bees, thats back on, and therefore I am thinking that need to unite it as soon as possible, it is just the practicalities of homing a (cast) swarm in a nuc - ie will that prove to be too small for them by the time it comes to unite - ie when she is a confirmed mated queen? I would ordinarily have moved them into a brood box, but as all my spare bits are now tied up with the AS I have to either raise them in the nuc until ready to unite, or go out and buy another floor/brood box/cb.

I think I am ok in uniting using 2xshallows above the existing hive, so really it is will a nuc be ok until ready to unite?

 

[oliver90owner]

Well, think about it, just a tad. If you are bent on uniting the unknown colony in the nuc hive with your existing small colony in a full hive what difference is it going to make? Thinking cap on will allow you to work out how to avoid the cast in the nuc getting too big for the box. It is very simple. You are the beekeeper. Back to you.

 

[MandF]

The question is; will the cast outgrow a polynuc before it is time to unite? Are you suggesting it will, by saying I need to avoid the cast getting too big for the nuc?

If it will I can maniupulate the hive locations to draw flying bees to the hive, although that wont be easy seeing as the AS is currently one side of the hive at the moment (in between the 2 hives, but closer to the parent hive).

It is a p8ynes poly nuc, so 6 frame.

 

[oliver90owner]

The question is; will the cast outgrow a polynuc before it is time to unite? Are you suggesting it will

Let me spell it out for you. Continual removal of capped brood/stores frames from the swarm colony in the nuc hive is a very simple, basic way to prevent them out-growing anything. If you are bent on uniting, those frames could go into the weaker colony.

Got it, yet?

 

[busybee53]

I only just read this thread and it took me a while to see what you meant
090. But when you pointed it out I see your point. Simples.

For original poster, I read somewhere that a nuc would probably last about 3 weeks before a brood box was needed, though how they worked that out beats me as it probably has a lot to do with the weather, size of swarm, flow, etc, etc.

As to uniting over newspaper with two shallows. If you have an eke (apiguard rim) use that with one shallow. Its just right. If you dont it would be simple to make one up. Just four bits of wood to bring the shallow up to the right depth. Two shallows will be too deep and the bees might make brace comb in the gap.

Good luck.

 

[MandF]

That still doesnt answer the question.

I would want to be prepared, I need to know the likelyhood of them outgrowing the nuc before a full unite, because if they will then I would want another brood box, because sods law dictates the recipient hive will have, by then, expanded to use all their brood frames.

And please try to be civil, this is a beekeeping forum, we are not ending wars or saving lives..

 

[MandF]

As to uniting over newspaper with two shallows. If you have an eke (apiguard rim) use that with one shallow. Its just right.
Good luck.

I do, thanks for the tip!

Also, if its 3 weeks, that will be enough to determine if she is mated or not.

 

[oliver90owner]

That still doesnt answer the question.

Well don't keep moving the goal posts!

 

[busybee53]

Like I said, can't be sure on the 3 weeks. Only read it somewhere, you might still end up needing another brood box. It depends how long you want to wait before uniting. I was thinking about uniting quite soon but unites later in the year are more successful so I am going to wait partly for that reason and partly because someone on this forum said that with all the rotten weather we've had this year mated queens are not easy to come by. I am going to keep my queens a little longer and try to see which is better before one gets the chop.

 

[MandF]

That still doesnt answer the question.

Well don't keep moving the goal posts!

Here are the original goal posts

"So how long should I leave them in the poly nuc, if they can stay in this until ready to unite (they may outgrow it quickly?) what is the best way to unite a nuc into a hive - I am thinking 2x shallows (as I have no spare brood box) & newspaper over the existing hive? If using the queen do I remove the queen from the lower brood first and put the nuc frames above, with new queen? "

The last bit is answered - I will use a shallow + eke to accomodate the brood frames, and I will use the newspaper method. I could ask for suggestions re: when (or if) to remove the bottom queen (ooer) but having read up on that it seems opinion is squarely divided between removing her for some time before uniting, or just before uniting.

How long SHOULD I leave them in the poly nuc (my thoughts are only as long as it takes to confirm she isnt a drone layer - but that ignores any varroa treatment I could/should be doing)?

How long COULD I leave them in the poly nuc?

If I need to leave them longer than it takes for them to outgrow it, then remedial action will be needed for which you have given me one answer - so thank you for that.

 

[oliver90owner]

because sods law dictates the recipient hive will have, by then, expanded to use all their brood frames.

And here you are talking about worrying over the recipient weak hive beintg too big. Sorry but if you don't think ahead any further than you can see (and you do seem to be very short sighted) you will not ask the right questions, even.

Are you thinking they are going to stay on single brood, or will you need another brood box - by the time the swarm has brooded sufficiently to assess the colony and this other colony has expanded beyond it's single brood box? (would probably been beyond one box by now, had you not just dumped them in a full box with foundation, btw).

but that ignores any varroa treatment I could/should be doing)?

Varroa treatment? Think when that is best done, and you will realise the irrelevance of that statement.

Start thinking for yourself is my last advice on this thread, because you are presently going round in circles. Probably ever decreasing ones so 'someone' only knows where you might end up.

 

[MandF]

One varroa treatment is to sacrifice brood.

I *could* let the swarm raise brood to the point where I confirm she is not a drone layer, then do a shook swarm with the recipient hive and freeze all the brood in the swarm.

I *could* oxalic the swarm as soon as I see eggs (and no sealed brood).

I *could* apiguard them as soon as I transfer them to the poly nuc.

So I fail to see how varroa treatment when uniting a swarm is irrelevant. My current thoughts are that I might do brood sacrifice if the recipient hive has built up and I can afford to lose a few frames of sealed brood. I can, of course, still use open brood.

As for double brood, then no, if any of my hives need more brood space, at this point I would go to brood and half. I have plenty of spare shallow boxes.

And as for the hive being full if i hadnt "dumped" them into a hive with foundation, there is a good reason why they havent drawn the other brood frames - and it is nothing to do with any extra insulation from a dummy board vs foundation, and I am perfectly aware why, and was happy enough with a slow build up because, as I said before, I was only looking for them to build up enough for winter. I did not want a swarmy hive when I would not be getting a crop off them. It was also insulated in the roof by the way.

So, enough sniping from you thanks.

 

[MandF]

And here you are talking about worrying over the recipient weak hive beintg too big. Sorry but if you don't think ahead any further than you can see (and you do seem to be very short sighted) you will not ask the right questions, even.

And to address this point directly, let me explain again, I was happy with the size and speed of build up of the recipient hive. Yesterday, BECAUSE I CAN NOW BOOST IT and get a crop, I did some manipulation to encourage them to draw the remaining foundation, and given them the conditions to expand more quickly.

It is a relatively weak hive, there would have been little or no chance of a crop, now there is a chance of a crop I am both intending to boost numbers with the swarm AND I am encouraging brood expansion. I do not think the brood expansion will be significant enough to block the brood box, so I believe there will be plenty of space to receive the swarm and bring it up to a "normal" size for this time of year. Sods law says that it might expand a lot quicker, thats not an issue in terms of my equipment, I will move them to brood & half. That might be an issue in terms of nicking brood frames from the nuc IF I NEED TO HOLD BACK THE NUC.

Which, again, was the main question here - I have never had a swarm before, and did not expect one to make its home in a nuc. Will the swarm be ok in a nuc until I can combine it.

I am more than happy for people to raise issues I might have missed, or have not considered, or give me alternative options for what I could do. Thats why I post on this forum.

What I dont want or need is you sniping like a petulant 8yr old child.

 

[oliver90owner]

No advice, but you are unreal. I might go so far as to say clueless. I have read your other argumentative threads on such topics as hiving nucs in full size boxes with all foundation in very inhospitable conditions, leaving gaping holes in the crownboard and others, and was not impressed. This thread is equally unimpressive, too.

 

[MandF]

"gaping holes" "dumping" "inhospitable"

I put nuc frames into brood boxes backfilled with foundation. I insulate the top of my hives with kingspan when I do this.

None of that = "dumping" or "gaping holes" or "inhospitable".

Furthermore it has absolutely no bearing on what I asked in this thread.

Now, without resorting to anglo saxon, GO AWAY.