Supersedure, this early?

[user 382]

Took advantage of the lovely weather today to do my first proper, but quick, inspection of the season. All hives doing nicely, but one looks like they are well down the supersedure route.

The hive in question is not as big as the others with just a couple of frames of eggs and brood in all stages, but also a sealed ripe looking queen cell smack bang in the middle of one frame. The bees are paying it a lot of attention, much like they do to any other queen cell that is due to hatch. I probably would have just accepted it had there been drones present, but none of my hives have any drones or even drone brood yet.

I've never seen supersedure this early in the season before. I've left them to it for now, but wondered what thoughts or suggestions others may have?

Steve

 

[beeno]

Hi SteveH,
I read somewhere that a healthy hive comes through winter with a small complement of drones. Never seen any in my hives!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've never seen supersedure this early in the season before. I've left them to it for now, but wondered what thoughts or suggestions others may have?

Steve

Yes, it is early, way too early, but if the bees have a failing queen, they will try regardless and hope for the best.If the original queen doesn't conk out altogether they may have more than one attempt to produce a queen (dispatching the unmated queen)in the vain hope one gets mated.
I think I would steel myself for the inevitable, and if by some miracle they manage it treat it as a bonus.

 

[rockdoc]

Just come back from looking at mine this afternoon. I did not inspect as its still too early, despite the glorious weather, but did see a few drones around. I have noted in the past that some of mine allow them to hang around right through winter. A bit of insurance I guess. So you may not be completely out of luck with your early supercedure.

 

[user 382]

For now I'll just keep an eye on them and requeen them if the supersedure doesn't work out.

Steve

 

[oliver90owner]

I read somewhere

Absolutely sure? Because I doubt it. But I don't know what, err, type of books you read. Seems to me to be just more cloud cuckoo talk. Need facts not things to mislead beginners reading the forum.

 

[richardbees]

Steve

Your bees know there are no drones around so just let them get on with it.....

 

[beeno]

I read somewhere

Absolutely sure? Because I doubt it. But I don't know what, err, type of books you read. Seems to me to be just more cloud cuckoo talk. Need facts not things to mislead beginners reading the forum.

Dearest Oliver,
May I refer you to post 4 above. You have got such a closed mind and such a bullying personality. You don't do yourself any favours at all. I believe it has all been said before. Working on yet another ban I take it?

 

[REDWOOD]

I inspected 13 colonies yesterday and seen no drones or drone brood which you should see before you see QC, probably just a desperate attempt, requeen is an option

 

[itma]

... but one looks like they are well down the supersedure route.

The hive in question is not as big as the others with just a couple of frames of eggs and brood in all stages, but also a sealed ripe looking queen cell smack bang in the middle of one frame. ...
... I've left them to it for now, but wondered what thoughts or suggestions others may have?

Supercedure cell does not mean that the old Q is no more.
If there is Brood In All Stages, then there are eggs, indicating that the old Q is still there and laying (or at least was, a couple of days ago).
Supercedure can involve 2 Qs co-existing happily for months, laying on the same frame at the same time.

As always with prospective supercedure, the best thing is to leave well alone.
If new Q fails to mate well enough, she will be terminated by the bees, and if old Q is still laying, they may try again after that princess has had her chance. (I agree with JBM!)

 

[Roola]

Should I be concerned if I saw some capped drone brood cells during my quick look yesterday? I only ask as there was no other capped worker brood but a few frames of newly laid eggs so I'm left wondering whether the queen is failing or not, they don't have the biggest number of bees compared to my other hive but have been flying well... I'm wondering whether to donate them a frame of capped brood from my much stronger colony which has plenty of bees which would if anything buy me some time to see what happens with the newly laid eggs... If queen is fine then an injection of new bees would not be a bad thing but if she's not then at least I can think about getting in a new queen.

 

[itma]

Should I be concerned if I saw some capped drone brood cells during my quick look yesterday? I only ask as there was no other capped worker brood but a few frames of newly laid eggs so I'm left wondering whether the queen is failing or not, they don't have the biggest number of bees compared to my other hive but have been flying well...

If you saw capped drone brood, and zero capped worker brood, then yes, be concerned.
That would indicate either a DLQ (with a proper brood pattern and Q in the hive) or laying workers (scattered brood, no Q).

 

[Roola]

If you saw capped drone brood, and zero capped worker brood, then yes, be concerned.
That would indicate either a DLQ (with a proper brood pattern and Q in the hive) or laying workers (scattered brood, no Q).

I did see the queen, eggs were laid in an orderly fashion across the frames but they were all new eggs and thus none had yet been capped over...

Would you advise giving them some brood to tied them over giving me some breathing space and waiting for 2014 queens to become available?

 

[rosco]

If the queen is still laying worker brood I would sit tight and only add brood from another colony if she stops. Hopefully that will be a bit later in the season and any emergency queen they create from the brood may have more chance of mating.

 

[thorn]

Dearest Oliver,
May I refer you to post 4 above. You have got such a closed mind and such a bullying personality. You don't do yourself any favours at all. I believe it has all been said before. Working on yet another ban I take it?

A wholly unhelpful and unnecessary post. Oliver may be sharp in his advice, but his views are always worth considering.

 

[Roola]

A wholly unhelpful and unnecessary post. Oliver may be sharp in his advice, but his views are always worth considering.

I disagree, I have lots of respect for Rab's advice, he knows a lot and has helped me on occasions but I think we sometimes need to remind him that he can come across rather rude which is not the way to encourage new beekeepers

 

[REDWOOD]

I disagree, I have lots of respect for Rab's advice, he knows a lot and has helped me on occasions but I think we sometimes need to remind him that he can come across rather rude which is not the way to encourage new beekeepers

Totally P!**ed me off when I first came on here but now I just except him for what he is, a very knowledgeable experienced beekeeper with an attitude a bit like my old maths teacher lol his replies mean well for bees and beekeepers alike ,

 

[pargyle]

Totally P!**ed me off when I first came on here but now I just except him for what he is, a very knowledgeable experienced beekeeper with an attitude a bit like my old maths teacher lol his replies mean well for bees and beekeepers alike ,

Yes .. RAB's been very helpful to many people on here (including me) .. he's usually bang on the money with his advice and gives you just enough to make you think about what you are doing .. I can understand it, sometimes, when his responses are a little to the point !

 

[itma]

I did see the queen, eggs were laid in an orderly fashion across the frames but they were all new eggs and thus none had yet been capped over...

Would you advise giving them some brood to tied them over giving me some breathing space and waiting for 2014 queens to become available?

If the queen is still laying worker brood I would sit tight and only add brood from another colony if she stops. ...

As long as there is some worker brood (which you can't really tell until it is capped) the colony has a hope for an independent future.
If there is zero worker brood, she is a DLQ, and past the end of her productive life.
At this point in the annual cycle, uniting to a Q+ colony (after removing the DLQ) is the best bet for a confirmed DLQ colony.

As long as there is enough forage (kinda weather dependant) the combined colony should put on numbers faster than the two components would have.
After the colony has built up (and there are some drones around) it can be split to raise a new Q. (You might find yourself needing to do an Artificial Swarm as the 'split'.)
Its a numbers game. A large colony gives more surplus than two small ones - whether that surplus be in terms of honey - or new bees!

 

[Dared]

I disagree, I have lots of respect for Rab's advice, he knows a lot and has helped me on occasions but I think we sometimes need to remind him that he can come across rather rude which is not the way to encourage new beekeepers