Supering and spacing

[Robbo8916]

Hello,

Seeing as I have finished my night shift early I wanted to ask a question.

Having had a quick look at my newly acquired bees they are on 9 frames in the brood box with a frame of foundation each end they are just beginning to draw. I put syrup on as they only arrived yesterday so was to give them a boost whilst drawing the last two frames.

The second frame in (which HM happened to be on) had a good patch of capped worker brood on both sides and was full of nectar everywhere else. So I am planning to add a super of foundation today (thursday) and leave the feeder on to help thrm draw it, in the hope that once drawn they will haul some of the stores up there freeing up more space for the queen to lay.

I didn't go all the way through the box as I didn't want to stress them unduly after their ordeal of moving. With the warm weather and the girls out in force colecting pollen, water and I assume nectar I am hoping this is the right time to add the super?

My other quick query is spacing. I understand that people like deeper cells for honey. But with it being foundation only, do I go narrow spacing i.e 11 frames to start with then once drawn swap it to wide and 9 frames?

Thanks in advance!

 

[misterbee82]

Hello,

Seeing as I have finished my night shift early I wanted to ask a question.

Having had a quick look at my newly acquired bees they are on 9 frames in the brood box with a frame of foundation each end they are just beginning to draw. I put syrup on as they only arrived yesterday so was to give them a boost whilst drawing the last two frames.

The second frame in (which HM happened to be on) had a good patch of capped worker brood on both sides and was full of nectar everywhere else. So I am planning to add a super of foundation today (thursday) and leave the feeder on to help thrm draw it, in the hope that once drawn they will haul some of the stores up there freeing up more space for the queen to lay.

I didn't go all the way through the box as I didn't want to stress them unduly after their ordeal of moving. With the warm weather and the girls out in force colecting pollen, water and I assume nectar I am hoping this is the right time to add the super?

My other quick query is spacing. I understand that people like deeper cells for honey. But with it being foundation only, do I go narrow spacing i.e 11 frames to start with then once drawn swap it to wide and 9 frames?

Thanks in advance!

There really isn't a wrong time to add a honey super as long as you add a queen extruder to prevent her from laying eggs in the honey. If it is a bit premature they just won't fill the honey super as quickly, until the next honey flow.

 

[Davelin]

With all foundation I would go for 11 frames in a super, you can reduce to 10 or 9 once you have drawn frames. If you start with foundation and 9 you may find wild comb built between the frames.

I work on 10 frames and when I want to introduce new foundation I alternate drawn frames and foundation.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

There really isn't a wrong time to add a honey super as long as you add a queen extruder to prevent her from laying eggs in the honey. If it is a bit premature they just won't fill the honey super as quickly, until the next honey flow.

Don't know about your location and don't profess to do so but in our climate adding a super at the wrong time creates a void which takes energy from the colony to heat so there definitely is a wrong time. In winter or cooler times it's detrimental to the colony. By all means add supers when or just before the additional space is required. That's part of the skills required for beekeeping and there will be variations around the world.

 

[Robbo8916]

With all foundation I would go for 11 frames in a super, you can reduce to 10 or 9 once you have drawn frames. If you start with foundation and 9 you may find wild comb built between the frames.

I work on 10 frames and when I want to introduce new foundation I alternate drawn frames and foundation.

Thankyou. Just what I was looking for

 

[Erichalfbee]

I keep reading of people putting supers of foundation on colonies then feeding on top to get them drawn. Where did that idea come from?

 

[Arfermo]

I keep reading of people putting supers of foundation on colonies then feeding on top to get them drawn. Where did that idea come from?

Feed off before supers go on - basic common sense.

 

[Robbo8916]

I've read a few times that it can be left on for a couple of days to help them start drawing it then remove it so they don't store syrup in it. They still have one brood frame to draw.

Should I take it off? Don't really want to disturb them again but they haven't touched it since yesterday?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There really isn't a wrong time to add a honey super as long as you add a queen extruder .

There is definitely a wrong time to put on a super - queen excluder or no - you're just giving the bees loads of unwanted space above the brood to heat - unless you know what you are doing.

Hello,

Having had a quick look at my newly acquired bees they are on 9 frames in the brood box with a frame of foundation each end they are just beginning to draw. I put syrup on as they only arrived yesterday so was to give them a boost whilst drawing the last two frames.

The second frame in (which HM happened to be on) had a good patch of capped worker brood on both sides and was full of nectar everywhere else. So I am planning to add a super of foundation today (thursday) and leave the feeder on to help thrm draw it, in the hope that once drawn they will haul some of the stores up there freeing up more space for the queen to lay.

I didn't go all the way through the box as I didn't want to stress them unduly after their ordeal of moving. With the warm weather and the girls out in force colecting pollen, water and I assume nectar I am hoping this is the right time to add the super?

You say the bees are on nine frames, but how much brood? being as there seems to be quite a bit of stores on the frames, I doubt you need to give them any more syrup - they will use the stores and whatever forage they have to draw out the extra foundation and likewise when you put the super on, bees won't finish drawing out comb before storing - as soon as they have some space they will start using it whilst drawing comb as they go along, you may end up with sugar syrup stored rather than honey. I would wait until you have at least six frames full of brood before supering.

I keep reading of people putting supers of foundation on colonies then feeding on top to get them drawn. Where did that idea come from?

.
No idea - daft regardless - if there's enough forage around to merit a super, there's enough around to make wax, People are only going to end up with sugar contaminated honey.

Hello,

My other quick query is spacing. I understand that people like deeper cells for honey. But with it being foundation only, do I go narrow spacing i.e 11 frames to start with then once drawn swap it to wide and 9 frames?

Thanks in advance!

If all foundation you are safer starting out with eleven then going to ten when they have drawn it out. You might get away with it during a heavy flow, but at quieter times they get bored and can be very creative

 

[Robbo8916]

There is definitely a wrong time to put on a super - queen excluder or no - you're just giving the bees loads of unwanted space above the brood to heat - unless you know what you are doing.

You say the bees are on nine frames, but how much brood? being as there seems to be quite a bit of stores on the frames, I doubt you need to give them any more syrup - they will use the stores and whatever forage they have to draw out the extra foundation and likewise when you put the super on, bees won't finish drawing out comb before storing - as soon as they have some space they will start using it whilst drawing comb as they go along, you may end up with sugar syrup stored rather than honey. I would wait until you have at least six frames full of brood before supering.


If all foundation you are safer starting out with eleven then going to ten when they have drawn it out. You might get away with it during a heavy flow, but at quieter times they get bored and can be very creative

They are on 7 full frames of brood, 2 of mixed pollen, nectar and capped stores and another side of the same. They have one undrawn frame and are drawing the other side of the other. I put it on because I am not going to be able to get there for a few days, and the weather is glorious with them packing in beech, willow and dandelion along with the odd bee coming in with bluebell.

I put a super with 11 frames of foundation on above the now installed QE.

They weren't in a great mood but then they have had a stressful couple of days. I suppose I can whip the feeder off without disturbing the bees inside.

 

[meetballuk]

Forage is pretty good at mo, lots of trees in bloom and dandelions etc.

super wont kill them, just slow build up which is not such a bad thing in the first year

some bees never occupie outer frames

 

[Brigsy]

Without hijacking the thread, on this subject, if we are talking national sizes, how do you know whether you need to allow the queen space to lay on brood and a half, or let them use the super for stores?

How do you know which route to take when starting out?

 

[Robbo8916]

Without hijacking the thread, on this subject, if we are talking national sizes, how do you know whether you need to allow the queen space to lay on brood and a half, or let them use the super for stores?

How do you know which route to take when starting out?

I've trusted the advice of the lady I got them from, being local bred bees although very industrious they don't have a massive brood nest so a single brood will see them through so long as they have the space to put store elsewhere.

I have put a super on for a couple of reasons, I won't be able to get to them for a week and they are so busy it even surprised a 30+ year beekeeper. They have such an abundance of forage they are piling everything in and I also found the queen on a frame full of nectar which led me to believe that she was looking for room to lay as the 7 frames of brood are wall to wall.

Hence, super to allow the bees to use some stores to draw the foundation and then shift some of it up, this freeing up space for HM to lay.

But I may be completely wrong

 

[Brigsy]

Not questioning you at all, just interested for myself!

Logically, if they have a super above a QX and the brood pattern below is getting close to capacity, then she should be allowed to come up?

 

[Robbo8916]

Not questioning you at all, just interested for myself!

Logically, if they have a super above a QX and the brood pattern below is getting close to capacity, then she should be allowed to come up?

Logically yes but it depends whether you would want one or more colonies by the end of the year. I suppose if you restrict her to one brood box and they become congested you could then perform an artificial swarm should they draw queen cells and end up with two colonies?

The more I think, the less I know, I know, you know? Lol

 

[Brigsy]

Logically yes but it depends whether you would want one or more colonies by the end of the year. I suppose if you restrict her to one brood box and they become congested you could then perform an artificial swarm should they draw queen cells and end up with two colonies?

The more I think, the less I know, I know, you know? Lol

I hear you haha!

I suspect so and or one can unite the two but I suspect they would get congested again, so try unite to brood and a half?

I'm going to wait for an adult hehe.

 

[Robbo8916]

I hear you haha!

I suspect so and or one can unite the two but I suspect they would get congested again, so try unite to brood and a half?

I'm going to wait for an adult hehe.

Lol probably a good idea. I think my girls will be fine on single brood as a lot have moved up to the super already, busy glueing down the crownboard. Feeder removed. One brood and one super on now. They're literally pouring in and out of the hive to the various trees in flower.

 

[Erichalfbee]

They weren't in a great mood but then they have had a stressful couple of days. I suppose I can whip the feeder off without disturbing the bees inside.

No need if you have only a little there. Leave it and take it off when they have eaten it. The trouble with feeding to draw wax is that the bees won't draw the whole super then start filling it. They will draw some then put syrup in it then draw some more etc etc. So you see how you'll end up with syrup in your honey.

There is definitely a wrong time to put on a super - queen excluder or no - you're just giving the bees loads of unwanted space above the brood to heat - unless you know what you are doing.

Ha....not if you have a Flow hive. You can put a Lang deep's worth of empty space on top even though the bees have not a single drop of stores in the brood box and you have half a brood box of bees, then go away for four weeks.... Good stuff....these Flow frames

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOQI3rmyqfI

 

[gregior]

Eh up Rob.Adding a super was fine but you could maybe have waited a week or 2 but as you say they were working very hard the other day.

As for the super spacing,i have some with 11 frames which i use for foundation then transfer them to 10 frame supers the next year and finally to 9 frame supers from year 3 onwards

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They are on 7 full frames of brood, 2 of mixed pollen, nectar and capped stores and another side of the same. They have one undrawn frame and are drawing the other side of the other. I put it on because I am not going to be able to get there for a few days, and the weather is glorious with them packing in beech, willow and dandelion along with the odd bee coming in with bluebell.

I put a super with 11 frames of foundation on above the now installed QE.

The right move then - as EricA just leave them finish the syrup they have then take the feeder away - if, when you next open up they haven't finished drawing out the brood frames put one frame between the stores and the brood each side - that should get them going.