Supercedure Cell

[Bakerbee]

This is good visual explanation of an artificial swarm

 

[Boston Bees]

This is good visual explanation of an artificial swarm

It's a good visual description of a Pagden.

But I wouldn't recommend a Pagden to a beginner, or indeed to anyone really. Too much faffing around moving the hive from side to side. And it keeps the queen with the flying bees, thus making it perfectly possible that the swarming instinct will be retained and new cells will be immediately built.

If I can find the queen, I use the nucleus method, best described here

The nucleus method - The Apiarist

If I can't find the queen, I use this method

Swarm control and elusive queens - The Apiarist

 

[Boston Bees]

Oh... I thought that the whole point of putting the nuc on the site of the parent hive was that returning foragers went to the nuc, thus depleting the main hive of foragers and reducing the urge to swarm there. Have I got that wrong?

You weren't meant to put the nuc on the site of the original hive, at least not if you followed the advice from JBM, or the link I provided.

The nucleus method - The Apiarist

The nuc with the queen in is meant to go on another stand.

I'm a bit confused because you suggest that this is what you have actually done

I went out this evening and nuc'd the Queen with 3 frames of brood and bees. She now sits in a nuc to the side of the 'parent hive'.

So, to be clear, which box is on the exact geographic location of the original hive?

 

[Beedogg]

Blimey... Ok, well it seems that I've done something part-way between the two.

1..Last night I set up the poly nuc box beside the parent hive.
2..I opened the parent hive, found the queen, transferred her and 3 frames of brood and bees into the nuc, filling up the rest of the box with foundation. As I transferred them I checked each frame for QCs and aimed to only transfer 'clean' frames (although as stated above, upon re-checking more thoroughly today I found 2 queen cups there today which I have removed).
3..I then back-filled the parent hive with fresh frames of foundation, having pushed together the frames with brood on them. I put the 3 frames of un-drawn foundation at the entrance end of the box (warm way).
4..as stated above, I then put the nuc on the site of the parent hive and moved the parent hive to one side by 1m or so.
5..Today I went through the parent hive frames and removed all but one QCs or queen cups. I recognise that I will have to check again in a few days to remove the emergency QCs that the colony will now build.

This is the first time I've done this and so don't be too harsh.

So, I accept that there is a risk that the queen in the nuc might decide that swarming is still on. The nuc has what appears to be a queen-excluded type entrance guard which would, if I closed it, prevent her from doing so. Currently it's fully open because I wanted to encourage foragers from the main hive to find there way into it. Maybe that's a mistake and maybe I should shut it(?)

In the main hive (on its new plinth) I'm hoping that my re-inspection in a few days will find and eliminate any emergency QCs that the Q- hive has produced. There are already two supers on that hive (one above the QE) so the bees actually have plenty of space if I can dissuade them from swarming in the short-term.

Have I catastrophicaly cocked this up? Or do I just now need to watch it v carefully? Should I take any more frames of bees from the parent hive and shake them into the nuc, or is that a waste of time now?

Wow, this is a learning experience...

 

[Boston Bees]

Blimey... Ok, well it seems that I've done something part-way between the two.

1..Last night I set up the poly nuc box beside the parent hive.
2..I opened the parent hive, found the queen, transferred her and 3 frames of brood and bees into the nuc, filling up the rest of the box with foundation. As I transferred them I checked each frame for QCs and aimed to only transfer 'clean' frames (although as stated above, upon re-checking more thoroughly today I found 2 queen cups there today which I have removed).
3..I then back-filled the parent hive with fresh frames of foundation, having pushed together the frames with brood on them. I put the 3 frames of un-drawn foundation at the entrance end of the box (warm way).
4..as stated above, I then put the nuc on the site of the parent hive and moved the parent hive to one side by 1m or so.
5..Today I went through the parent hive frames and removed all but one QCs or queen cups. I recognise that I will have to check again in a few days to remove the emergency QCs that the colony will now build.

This is the first time I've done this and so don't be too harsh.

So, I accept that there is a risk that the queen in the nuc might decide that swarming is still on. The nuc has what appears to be a queen-excluded type entrance guard which would, if I closed it, prevent her from doing so. Currently it's fully open because I wanted to encourage foragers from the main hive to find there way into it. Maybe that's a mistake and maybe I should shut it(?)

In the main hive (on its new plinth) I'm hoping that my re-inspection in a few days will find and eliminate any emergency QCs that the Q- hive has produced. There are already two supers on that hive (one above the QE) so the bees actually have plenty of space if I can dissuade them from swarming in the short-term.

Have I catastrophicaly cocked this up? Or do I just now need to watch it v carefully? Should I take any more frames of bees from the parent hive and shake them into the nuc, or is that a waste of time now?

Wow, this is a learning experience...

OK, understood.

You are finding queen cups in the nuc because the nuc has the queen, the flying bees and plenty of brood, so as far as they are concerned, they have all the requirements for a swarm, and they are still in swarm mode.

What you need to do is switch the box locations.

This will mean the foragers will go into the parent hive, which is where they should be.

The nuc will lose its flying bees, and thus almost certainly lose its urge to swarm. Just make sure it has enough food, as it will have no foragers bringing new nectar in for a few days.

Then tomorrow you can assess the population of the nuc. If it is too low to keep the brood warm you can shake more bees in. If all you did was move 3 frames of brood and bees in, and didn't shake any further bees in, then there is a high chance that they will be under populated, as half the bees you saw on those frames will have been foragers and they will leave. If the brood isn't capped, and thus needs a lot of feeding and keeping warm, this can be a problem. So you will probably need to shake a couple more frames of bees in (but be careful not to shake the frame with your chosen queen cell on)

PS: Don't ever be tempted to use the queen excluder entrance guard to stop a swarm. All you will do is end up with an entrance choked with drones who can't get out.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Beedogg,
Your photo of the group of QCs shows that they're surrounded by drone brood.

This may indicate that they're duff, unless the bees moved fertilised eggs into those three cells.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oh... I thought that the whole point of putting the nuc on the site of the parent hive was that returning foragers went to the nuc, thus depleting the main hive of foragers and reducing the urge to swarm there. Have I got that wrong?

yes, you should put the nuc a few feet away so that the foragers return to the main hive, depleting the nuc of its swarm instigators, otherwise the queen will swarm anyway

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This is good visual explanation of an artificial swarm

But it's not what was done in this case - this was a queen away nuc. so QC's reduced to one in main give and queen taken away in a nuc but kept in the same apiary to bleed the fliers off.

 

[Beedogg]

For the moment I've left the nuc where it was (on the site of the parent hive). I had a peek inside today and fed them a little syrup. The Queen is there and there are no QCs. She/they have adequate space there (2 spare frames of un-drawn foundation) and they don't seem to be making preparations to swarm. So I'm inclined to leave them be for a short while.

The parent hive on its new site looks normally busy and I'll clear out the unwanted emergency QCs in three days. Then we'll see...

 

[Boston Bees]

She/they have adequate space there (2 spare frames of un-drawn foundation)

Fine, but just remember that undrawn foundation is not "space" - they don't view it as usable laying area, for obvious reasons. As far as the bees are concerned, until that foundation is drawn (and they may not bother), they are having to exist on just 4 frames of comb, and the flying bees will be filling that comb with nectar (or at least will be when the sun shines ....), leaving the queen less and less room to lay eggs......

 

[Beedogg]

I see. Would it be wise to put in a couple of frames of drawn foundation from a super on the parent hive?

 

[Beedogg]

I inspected again today expecting to find lots of emergency QCs since the queen was nuc'd 5 days ago. I couldn't see any. The existing QC was still there (I'd expect it to emerge on Sunday) and there were a few queen cups on the edges of some of the frames. But I couldn't see anything I recognised as emergency QCs, although there were one or two capped cells which I would describe as 'extra domed'; in other words they looked a bit like drone cells but were solitary and somewhat taller. But none of them had been drawn out to hang down from the face, which was what I was expecting.

What am I seeing? And should I be concerned, or just leave them to it?

 

[Boston Bees]

I inspected again today expecting to find lots of emergency QCs since the queen was nuc'd 5 days ago. I couldn't see any. The existing QC was still there (I'd expect it to emerge on Sunday) and there were a few queen cups on the edges of some of the frames. But I couldn't see anything I recognised as emergency QCs, although there were one or two capped cells which I would describe as 'extra domed'; in other words they looked a bit like drone cells but were solitary and somewhat taller. But none of them had been drawn out to hang down from the face, which was what I was expecting.

What am I seeing? And should I be concerned, or just leave them to it?

Emergency cells would look like a drone cell which had slumped downwards at 90 degrees. If the cells you are seeing haven't turned downwards at all, those are just drones.

 

[Beedogg]

OK, thanks. So am I right to be surprised that 5 days after the removal of the queen there aren't any emergency QCs?

 

[Boston Bees]

OK, thanks. So am I right to be surprised that 5 days after the removal of the queen there aren't any emergency QCs?

If there were eggs or young larvae available to them, I would have expected some emergency QCs, yes. But perhaps the queen had gone off lay in preparation for swarming? Were there definitely eggs visible when you did the split?

 

[Beedogg]

Well, if I'm honest I didn't check that. But there was/is a lot of brood and she had been laying vigorously.

So, I plan to check again on Sunday when I would hope that the one QC I did see has emerged. If it has then presumably I just hope that she mates OK and then we're back to normal with a Q+ colony.

However, if she doesn't emerge and if there continues to be no QCs then I guess my best bet is re-merge the old queen with the old colony. Is that correct?

Presumably I could re-merge the queen and old colony but leave the brood that she's been with in the nuc where it is and hope that that side of the split raises QCs? Or am I over-thinking it?

 

[Boston Bees]

So, I plan to check again on Sunday when I would hope that the one QC I did see has emerged. If it has then presumably I just hope that she mates OK and then we're back to normal with a Q+ colony.

Wait till you are sure that the QC must have emerged by now, if it's not a dud. If yes, then you need to stay out of the way for, say, 28 days to give her the chance to mate properly and start laying.

However, if she doesn't emerge and if there continues to be no QCs then I guess my best bet is re-merge the old queen with the old colony. Is that correct?

If it's confirmed as definitely a dud QC then probably, yes.

Presumably I could re-merge the queen and old colony but leave the brood that she's been with in the nuc where it is and hope that that side of the split raises QCs? Or am I over-thinking it?

You could but I wouldn't. It's already mid July - wasp season is only a few weeks away - you are in danger of having quite a weak nuc in a race to build up fast enough for winter. And you didn't start this process because you were desperate to make increase anyway?

 

[Beedogg]

OK, so in the continuing saga... Checked the parent hive today to find that the QC I'd identified earlier had indeed emerged, earlier today I assume. It still looked a really 'scruffy' QC and it appeared to have opened at the side rather than the top. Anyway, it was empty. I then found the young queen a few frames further into the brood box who seemed happy wandering about; quite small but definitely a queen. I couldn't see any more QCs but, to be honest, I stopped checking then because I was just so pleased to see that she'd hatched safely.

So I think that I now just wait for her to mature, mate and start laying which, if I'm correct, should have happened by about a fortnight's time, say by the 25th. My guess is that I just leave her to it now.

So I'm still slighty puzzled what has happened but, picking up what Boston Bees has said, it seems that I when I mis-identified the swarm cell as a supercedure cell I must have intervened and nuc'd the queen a few days after she'd stopped laying in preparation to swarm. When I took her away and took out all the other QCs they were left with just the one and they didn't produce emergency QCs because, as BB suggests, they had no larva at that stage. Providing that she mates successfully then it seems that, largely by accident, maybe I have got away with it this time. I need to be more vigilant in future.

 

[Boston Bees]

OK, so in the continuing saga... Checked the parent hive today to find that the QC I'd identified earlier had indeed emerged, earlier today I assume. It still looked a really 'scruffy' QC and it appeared to have opened at the side rather than the top. Anyway, it was empty. I then found the young queen a few frames further into the brood box who seemed happy wandering about; quite small but definitely a queen. I couldn't see any more QCs but, to be honest, I stopped checking then because I was just so pleased to see that she'd hatched safely.

So I think that I now just wait for her to mature, mate and start laying which, if I'm correct, should have happened by about a fortnight's time, say by the 25th. My guess is that I just leave her to it now.

So I'm still slighty puzzled what has happened but, picking up what Boston Bees has said, it seems that I when I mis-identified the swarm cell as a supercedure cell I must have intervened and nuc'd the queen a few days after she'd stopped laying in preparation to swarm. When I took her away and took out all the other QCs they were left with just the one and they didn't produce emergency QCs because, as BB suggests, they had no larva at that stage. Providing that she mates successfully then it seems that, largely by accident, maybe I have got away with it this time. I need to be more vigilant in future.

Thanks for the update

The only jarring note is that, when you find a queen cell torn open from the side, that's generally accepted (or so I believe) to be a sign that the queen inside has been removed by force by the worker bees, rather than emerging normally. This happens when the queen in the QC is dead.

As such this is commonly seen when a queen in a QC has been killed by another queen - often a newly emerged virgin from another cell (or has died for some other reason)

So I wonder if the virgin you saw was from another cell, and had despatched the queen in the QC you knew about? Anyway, it's always difficult to say. Important thing is you have a queen, so now she needs to get mated - give her plenty of time.

 

[Beedogg]

Interesting. Thanks. Wow, this is certainly a learning curve....