Supercedure Cell

[Beedogg]

OK, another beginner question.

I have two colonies, both resulting from swarms captured earlier in the year. Colony 1 is going great guns, Colony 2 a little slower off the mark but now getting its act together. Colony 1 has a Queen which I'm pretty sure was a virgin queen when she arrived. She's more or less doubled in size since then, is laying prolifically and has filled up the entire brood box with brood. I've already taken a first harvest of honey off the hive and it was only hived in the middle of May. It looks a strong healthy colony and at first sight it would seem unlikey that such a colony would want to supercede such a fresh and vigorous new Queen.

However, after ready the Wally Shaw booklet 'There are Queen Cells in my Hive) I had a really close look at both hives yesterday. In the strong colony I found what appear to be two or three Supercedure Cell cups being produced on the face of one of the frames of brood, in a small cluster (very much as he described). One of them definitely has a little larva curled up in the bottom of it, the other two were empty. I didn't see anything that I could recognise as Royal Jelly there, just a little larva.

So I my question is: are there circumstances when a worker larva would develop in a queen cup? Is that the more likely explanation as to what is going on here?

I wish I had photos to show but that's a step I need to move to.

 

[Bakerbee]

OK, another beginner question.

I have two colonies, both resulting from swarms captured earlier in the year. Colony 1 is going great guns, Colony 2 a little slower off the mark but now getting its act together. Colony 1 has a Queen which I'm pretty sure was a virgin queen when she arrived. She's more or less doubled in size since then, is laying prolifically and has filled up the entire brood box with brood. I've already taken a first harvest of honey off the hive and it was only hived in the middle of May. It looks a strong healthy colony and at first sight it would seem unlikey that such a colony would want to supercede such a fresh and vigorous new Queen.

However, after ready the Wally Shaw booklet 'There are Queen Cells in my Hive) I had a really close look at both hives yesterday. In the strong colony I found what appear to be two or three Supercedure Cell cups being produced on the face of one of the frames of brood, in a small cluster (very much as he described). One of them definitely has a little larva curled up in the bottom of it, the other two were empty. I didn't see anything that I could recognise as Royal Jelly there, just a little larva.

So I my question is: are there circumstances when a worker larva would develop in a queen cup? Is that the more likely explanation as to what is going on here?

I wish I had photos to show but that's a step I need to move to.

You don't say how many frames of brood is in your bb. If it's literally filled with brood as you say, they may be preparing to swarm. If the queen has no room to lay she will swarm .As for cups if there's the beginnings of a qc and larvae in it you may have caught them in the process of building and feeding. Could you post a picture so we can see it.

 

[Beedogg]

Checked again today. The cup I saw on Friday has now been sealed, and another one beside it has a larva in it also. It looks like a classic small cluster of supersedure cells. Am I right?

If so, I'm still a bit mystified as to why the colony would want to supersede the queen, but it appears that they do.

 

[Boston Bees]

Is your queen definitely still there?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

looks like a classic small cluster of supersedure cells.

What does a classic cluster of supersedure cells look like
In fact, what does a classic S/S cell look like?

 

[Beedogg]

Well, I'm an absolute bee-ginner (so please don't take anything I say as authoritative). But having read the Wally Shaw booklet recently he distinguishes between Supersedure Cells (normally a small group of 2-3 QCs on the face of a frame) from Swarm Cells (lots, at the bottom or sides of the frames) and from Emergency QCs (lots on the face of the frames).

These look to me like the former.

 

[Beedogg]

Is your queen definitely still there?

She was definitely there on Friday. I didn't do a full inspection today. I just wanted to check on the progress of these cells.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Supersedure cells tend to be one or two, the same age, and at the edge of the brood nest.
Bees can and do swarm on them. In which case they were wrongly identified in the first place.

 

[RichardK]

I think the route you takes depends on how much of a gambler you are. Recent feedback to me (which I really appreciated) made the point that there is no rule book on where to put queen cells, or how many. I accept there are guidelines like in the Wally Shaw booklet (I'll have to find a copy...).

In essence are you so sure it's supercedure you're willing to let nature take it course? If you're wrong of course, then the hive will swarm and you'll loose x% of your bees!

Or would you rather do an artificial swarm now, even if you then put the resulting two colonies back into one in the future? At least you don't loose your bees, but it is of course more work...

Do you feel lucky?

 

[Boston Bees]

She was definitely there on Friday. I didn't do a full inspection today. I just wanted to check on the progress of these cells.

We're still in swarm season, and as JBM says you can't really tell whether a queen cell is swarm or supercedure. As such I would nuc the queen myself, if the hive is as busy as you say.

You may also have missed other cells. It's easy to do.

Google "Apiarist Nucleus Method" if you aren't sure what I mean.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, but unfortunately, in the beekeeping world there is this compulsion to pigeonhole everything into definite categories, nowhere is this worse than when talking about queen cells, even Wally who I class as amongst the better people when it comes to common sense beekeeping 'experts' has fallen into this trap. The first mistake is that they all treat the hive as a two dimensional object, nowhere is this seen more than when talking of supersedure cells - bees tend to build supersedure cells on the periphery of the brood nest to try and ensure the existing queen doesn't see them so yes, if you go to the frame on the outermost edge of the cluster you may see a solitary QC on the face of the comb towards the centre but if you take out the middle frame the the periphery of the nest is tucked right in between the frame and the comb (I have seen many more supersedure cells in this position than on the face of the comb) there is usually a lot fewer QCs in a supersedure but that is not a definite, so even if you only have one QC, it's a 40/60 chance they may swarm
Swarm cells can be absolutely anywhere - it is utter nonsense to suggest they are all made on the bottom bars of the frame
The only cells you can be pretty confident in identifying are emergency cells as they are built totally different to get the larvae out of the worker cell and into the larger volume needed for a queen cell

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

. I accept there are guidelines like in the Wally Shaw booklet (I'll have to find a copy...).

download it off the WBKA website

In essence are you so sure it's supercedure you're willing to let nature take it course? If you're wrong of course, then the hive will swarm and you'll loose x% of your bees!

Or would you rather do an artificial swarm now, even if you then put the resulting two colonies back into one in the future? At least you don't loose your bees, but it is of course more work...

Do you feel lucky?

In this case, there is a third option, take the queen away in a nuc with a few frames of emerging brood and a good shake of bees and leave the hive raise a new queen from one of the QCs. If it was swarming, you now have the old queen with a new colony building up and hopefully a new queen in the mother hive.
If it was supersedure, they will try again in the nuc pretty sharpish. Happened exactly like that with me a few weeks ago.

 

[RichardK]

download it off the WBKA website

In this case, there is a third option, take the queen away in a nuc with a few frames of emerging brood and a good shake of bees and leave the hive raise a new queen from one of the QCs. If it was swarming, you now have the old queen with a new colony building up and hopefully a new queen in the mother hive.
If it was supersedure, they will try again in the nuc pretty sharpish. Happened exactly like that with me a few weeks ago.

That's interesting - so with the old queen they were right on it for supercedure in the nuc? Do you remember after how long you noticed the queen cell(s)?

 

[Bakerbee]

Every swarm I have had has been in middle of brood or off to side, not at the bottom like " swarm cells". Im betting they've run out of room and are about to swarm..I would split the hive and do an artificial swarm. But that's just me.

 

[Beedogg]

Wow, thanks for all those replies. It's set the old grey matter fizzing.

The bit that doesn't sit right with the Supersedure scenario is that the Queen was almost certainly a virgin queen when I acquired her just a few weeks ago and she's been laying furiously since then, such that there are now 11 full frames of brood now and the hive is bulging with bees. I had on Friday already put a super on below the QE to create space for a brood and a half - but probably too late.

So, with a suitably deep breath (since I've never done this before), I went out this evening and nuc'd the Queen with 3 frames of brood and bees. She now sits in a nuc to the side of the 'parent hive'.

In going through the frames to find her (it was getting dark and she is un-marked) I also noticed a number of other new clusters of Queen Cups on the faces of other frames. There weren't any there on Friday so that lends weight to the theory that they are really swarm cells. I didn't linger to see if any were charged. It was getting dark and I wanted to get the job done before I lost the light.

So, I hope I've done the right thing. I imagine that time will tell. I assume that the sealed QC(s) in the parent hive produce a new queen in about 8 days, right?

Follow-on question. Do I need to feed the population of the nuc? I'm assuming that the flying bees will return to the main hive tomorrow morning. Is there likely to be a gap between that and new foragers bringing in food to the nuc?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Wow, thanks for all those replies. It's set the old grey matter fizzing.

The bit that doesn't sit right with the Supersedure scenario is that the Queen was almost certainly a virgin queen when I acquired her just a few weeks ago and she's been laying furiously since then, such that there are now 11 full frames of brood now and the hive is bulging with bees. I had on Friday already put a super on below the QE to create space for a brood and a half - but probably too late.

So, with a suitably deep breath (since I've never done this before), I went out this evening and nuc'd the Queen with 3 frames of brood and bees. She now sits in a nuc to the side of the 'parent hive'.

In going through the frames to find her (it was getting dark and she is un-marked) I also noticed a number of other new clusters of Queen Cups on the faces of other frames. There weren't any there on Friday so that lends weight to the theory that they are really swarm cells. I didn't linger to see if any were charged. It was getting dark and I wanted to get the job done before I lost the light.

So, I hope I've done the right thing. I imagine that time will tell. I assume that the sealed QC(s) in the parent hive produce a new queen in about 8 days, right?

Follow-on question. Do I need to feed the population of the nuc? I'm assuming that the flying bees will return to the main hive tomorrow morning. Is there likely to be a gap between that and new foragers bringing in food to the nuc?

It would be wise to feed the nuc a little - you also need to go back into the main hive and reduce the QC's down to one good one, mark the frame it's on then go back in again in 6-8 days and take down any more emergency QCs they've made.

 

[Bakerbee]

Well done for doing the split, it's a scary thing to do for the first time. If you don't reduce the qc's down to one you will get further cast swarms, where each virgin takes an amount of bees with her leaving you with a small week hive. Pick the nicest looking qc and cut out the rest, mark the frame and go back in in 5-7 days to remove any further attempts at qc being made. It never hurts to offer a feed if they need it they take it. You're correct in assuming you noticed a little late, I have swarm alert in my brain every time I inspect. If they are going great guns at 6 frames of brood I start thinking about ways to create space. Good luck eith the split

 

[Beedogg]

Thanks. This morning I re-checked the parent hive and removed a number of QCs leaving just one (the oldest one). I also re-checked the nuc's frames in daylight and removed two queen cups that I must have missed last night. By mid-morning there was a good cloud of bees around the front of the nuc which are, I assume, returning foragers from the main hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks. This morning I re-checked the parent hive and removed a number of QCs leaving just one (the oldest one). I also re-checked the nuc's frames in daylight and removed two queen cups that I must have missed last night. By mid-morning there was a good cloud of bees around the front of the nuc which are, I assume, returning foragers from the main hive.

the foragers should be returning to the main hive and the nuc should be quiet for a few weeks

 

[Beedogg]

Oh... I thought that the whole point of putting the nuc on the site of the parent hive was that returning foragers went to the nuc, thus depleting the main hive of foragers and reducing the urge to swarm there. Have I got that wrong?