Sudden huge mite drop!?

[Beefriendly]

I think one out of 20 or so colonies playing silly buggers would suggest otherwise. But feel free to interpret my rogue hive as being the norm.

 

[Eyeman]

Like others on this thread, I've a problem hive that refuses to give up its mites. It's just had its sixth 5-day vape (2.5 gm of oxalic-based product) from under the OMF and it's still dropped 61 mites in 24 hours.

Possible reasons for continued high numbers of mites:

1. they're robbing out a heavily infested hive
2. the foundress mites are not taking their statutory phoretic breeding break and on emerging from one cell nip into another straight away and are thus not available to be zapped by the OA
3. there are mites in the extremities of the hives that do not get a dose of OA vapour and the vapour cloud swirls around the hive after a treatment

You're welcome to add to the list of possible explanations.

Below is a graph of the drops from this hive in relation to OA treatments - the last count (61) was Saturday 16 September. Just under 2000 mites dropped since the start of treatments.

Humidity inside the hive: higher humidity keeps the OA active for a longer period?
Vaping from the top rather that the bottom: With an active vapouriser I'm seeing little or no condensation of OA under the crown board now I've switched to vaping from the top.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It is your posts that suggests vaping is an ineffective treatment. I would not like to disrupt my colony(s) eight times for treatment - this seems an extraordinarily high level of stress to put your bees through at this time of year.

There is no stress
The bees fan the sublimate for a minute then peace descends
You don't have to open the hive
When you take your tape off the entrance hardly a bee comes out to investigate.

 

[JWF]

There is no stress
The bees fan the sublimate for a minute then peace descends
You don't have to open the hive
When you take your tape off the entrance hardly a bee comes out to investigate.

Further to the final point, there's barely any interruption to the bees movements at the hive entrance during the treatment, if you leave the entrance unblocked during treatment.

They don't seem to mind much at all.

 

[madasafish]

Surely this goes to show how ineffective vaping is?

If you do it when there is a lot of brood, then you need lots of treatments to catch the mites hidden in the cells.

Most of us vape when there is little brood..and then it is very effective.

If you want to do an experiment under controlled conditions to prove your assertion, please feel free. Until you do, others will work on the basis of their own results.. which generally are excellent - and proven by scientific research..

We are talking about a procedure proven by decades of use... I take it when you vaped, you were unsuccessful?

 

[3bees]

I am making reference to those who advocate vaping. They are the ones posting the necessity to treat hives 5 & 8 times not me. If I were to go by their experience vaping seems ineffective.

 

[madasafish]

I am making reference to those who advocate vaping. They are the ones posting the necessity to treat hives 5 & 8 times not me. If I were to go by their experience vaping seems ineffective.

They are vaping when there is brood present. vaping does not affect mites in cells. So they repeat to catch emerged mites...which means at least a 28 day treatment...

 

[3bees]

Yes I do understand the principles, but 5 - 8 times is weekly treatments for 6 - 8 weeks. Their words not mine.

 

[madasafish]

Yes I do understand the principles, but 5 - 8 times is weekly treatments for 6 - 8 weeks. Their words not mine.

Well, weekly treatments do not kill all mites.. Which is why - having tried it last year - I don't vape now but wait till January when there is minimal brood.

I have two hives with big drops during and after Apiguard. Apistan works well I find (most resistance to it seems to have gone as it is not used much)

 

[Millet]

Yes I do understand the principles, but 5 - 8 times is weekly treatments for 6 - 8 weeks. Their words not mine.

The 8 treatments is only on one hive out of 20 the other colonies are clear so to me vaping is very effective, i have vaped for three season now with excellent results, if you tried it you would see the same results, for instance after the first Autumn vape it is not uncommon too see hundreds of dead Varroa on the inspection tray several days later, so to me again that proves how effective it is, on top of all that it does not stress the bees / kill brood or stop the Queen from laying and it is a dirt cheap method of safely controlling Varroa, i will use it all the time now unless a better method is discovered.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes I do understand the principles, but 5 - 8 times is weekly treatments for 6 - 8 weeks. Their words not mine.

Nobody is trying to convert you. Some of us are just discussing problem hives. As for treating for six weeks,putting in apilife var weekly for four weeks is about the same except you have to open the hive and the bees hate it. If you do a varroa count at the end of treatment, i.e. Six weeks after your first tablet went in and your drop is still sky high what next?

 

[Beefriendly]

Some of us are just discussing problem hives.

It's good that we are discussing these problem hives as we may end up with a solution or rational explanation as to why an occasional rogue hive takes so long to have it's varroa "tamed".
I shall certainly keep people posted...vape 9 is due tomorrow on my problem hive. Most of my others are done and dusted with little varroa dropping after 3rd vape. I shall probably give them a 4th to err on the cautious side.
I think 3bees needs to understand that we are talking about the occasional problem hive and despite his criticism of vaping he hasn't(yet) presented us with his viable alternative varroa treatment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Humidity inside the hive: higher humidity keeps the OA active for a longer period?
Vaping from the top rather that the bottom: With an active vapouriser I'm seeing little or no condensation of OA under the crown board now I've switched to vaping from the top.

The treatment works after the OA desublimates - the micro crystals settle on all surfaces and bees and it's only then it starts to work.
Much the same way as trickling but without the sticky mess.
It's not the 'vapour' that kills the mites its the desublimated crystals.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

A few things that may or may not be worth considering :

1. If they're on two boxes, is it worth splitting the boxes and inserting the vaporiser in between the boxes to ensure that the top box gets a good dose.
2. If you're vaping through an OMF then to eliminate the chance of this particular floor knocking out more OA than others, vape via the entrance. Put the vapouriser to the side of the hive if you're concerned about affecting the brood area which is likely to be central.
3. Increase the dose - I think it was the LASI research that showed doses up to 4.2g had no negative effect

There may be something in what you suggest but my problem hive is in a single 14x12 National so no need to separate the boxes. All of my hives (all 14x12) are on underfloor entrances so vaping is from the rear with the vapour floating up through the mesh of the OMF, with no possibility of the vapouriser going in through the front entrance. It's about 80mm from the vaping pan to the mesh. I have not looked for OA condensate on the mesh - I'll try to check it next time I vape but it will be quite tricky to check - might involve the use of mirrors (alongside the smoke!). I could try increasing the dose but my vapouriser has a very slight capacity problem - it's difficult to get more than about 2.3 gm of material in the pan so I might have to do some fettling.

My problem hive had 4 supers on and was a well-populated hive. Maybe I had a lot of bees and therefore, at the end of the season, a lot of mites. If 20% of those were mature mites that had reproduced once, they don't need 5 days or more of phoresy so maybe these older mites only have a minimal phoretic stage - out of one cell and into another about-to-be-sealed cell, so missed out on a dose of OA. Plausible?

Must go - I've got some mites to count!

CVB

 

[Eyeman]

The treatment works after the OA desublimates - the micro crystals settle on all surfaces and bees and it's only then it starts to work.
Much the same way as trickling but without the sticky mess.
It's not the 'vapour' that kills the mites its the desublimated crystals.

It may be those crystals needs to dissolve for the mites to take the OA into their foot pads?

 

[Beefriendly]

I could try increasing the dose but my vapouriser has a very slight capacity problem - it's difficult to get more than about 2.3 gm of material in the pan so I might have to do some fettling.

Not sure that is the answer CVB. I've been doing double OA quantities with sublimox from above and still seeing a problem with large drops in this particular problem hive.

 

[Beefriendly]

For anyone still interested in my stand out like a sore thumb proverbial problem hive (rest are doing fine) 9th vape has the count down to 48 (sad...I counted every one!) in 48 hours...1 drop an hour
Queen still laying and they are taking down syrup nicely.

Now would others consider 48 after 48 hours an indication of an acceptable number of varroa left behind? I'm more used to final vapes (4th) giving 10-12 mites after 48 hours. Be interested to hear others counts and thoughts.

 

[Eyeman]

My next inspections would only be in 5 or so days time so I don't have any data for shorter intervals.
My aim at this time of the year is to get the number down so that winter bees are healthy. x3 vapes at 5 day intervals is what I've done. Not been counting mites as I've not been seeing huge drops.
Come December the plan is the same as last year and I'll repeat the x3 at 5 day intervals and look at getting into single figures after the last vape.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

For anyone still interested in my stand out like a sore thumb proverbial problem hive (rest are doing fine) 9th vape has the count down to 48 (sad...I counted every one!) in 48 hours...1 drop an hour
Queen still laying and they are taking down syrup nicely.

Now would others consider 48 after 48 hours an indication of an acceptable number of varroa left behind? I'm more used to final vapes (4th) giving 10-12 mites after 48 hours. Be interested to hear others counts and thoughts.

I'm looking to get my daily count below 10. On my problem hive (14x12), the seventh vape (I had to do it on the fourth day after the 6th because I was going away for a day) produced 91 mites in 48 hours! Doh! The last 4 treatments do not appear to be reducing the daily mite drop although 700 mites have in fact been killed - where are they coming from? Why isn't the drop dropping?

CVB

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'll add my two penn'orth
I have miscounted the vapes
Two days ago I did the seventh, I thought it was the sixth, and I have decided to do t every four days till I get these mites down to 10
The 24 hour count after this one was still 300
I looked into this colony three days ago expecting to see few bees. How wrong. There are lots of bees. Very little capped brood, maybe a hundred cells, some perforated a few with dead bees in so typical PMS but I watched one emerge and she was fine.
Food stores are plentiful
The queen was there and she had laid up two frames of eggs and young larvae.
Outside they are going like the clappers, still all weathers.
If I'd had my wits about me I would have caught some of those returning bees and done a sugar roll. I might still do
The running total for a month is 6380